vagrant lands formation guide (work in progress, contributers appreciated)

JessicaMD wrote:
I like the fact that the progs this time are actually good species; psy brute, cov beast, sin dragon, so they'll actually fit on teams with minimal shenanigans like combo losses, instead of what they seem to do more often with the totally random species progs that are like an invitation to attack when you see one as someone's leader since they break all combos

absolutely excellent point, I will be adding something about cheap prog-oriented teams.

Just a word of suggestion, if this is anything like mobius at all the early bosses will be trivially weak enough that progs will be unnecessary. (remember all those lv 1-15ish mobius bosses that could be 1-shotted by single players with half-decent formations?) If you already have a prog, by all means start leveling it up. HOWEVER; if you are short on ep, it may not be an altogether bad idea to hold off on purchase until you need one, because prices will be steadily falling as supply increases.

- Covert Beasts w/prog

kheimon wrote:
I will personally be trying out my beast team I've been working on, with green prog fitting nicely into it (taking bucephalus's place since skills don't activate against raid bosses). Hoping to deal somewhere around 90-95k damage with that form for 140 bp cost.

Ogame (prog)
Scorch
Sentinel
Bayard
BSK

This team will wreck some damage!

- Psycho Brutes w/prog

JessicaMD wrote:
I think i'm going to try something similar, well, it won't be nearly as hard-hitting, but what I currently have are the traditional psy winged brutes, and also a 128bp psy demon team (which is probably horrendously inefficient). So I think I'll try get one of those psycho progs later this week near event start once there are a few more around and prices have gone down, and just pop it into my winged brutes team.

lastly, I'll add something about a wyrm team to back up aya; will make use of cheaper sin wyrms like ladon/flame tarasque because some people who don't have them might not want to go and pick up a MLD, NWD, Magma on the spot for the event.

How are covert beasts going to deal with all the ded monsters? I don't think I can take out Bsk+(7) just because he is high bp, and did centaurus just become worthless?

Thanks for the guide, I found it thought provoking.

I managed to get a Sin Prog+ so am looking at all Wrym varients. Trying to end up with a low cost team.

Aya+
Mars+
Ladon+
Flame+
Furnace+ 82 BP total

And for when I need more punch

Aya+
MLD+
Kanna+
Uranus+
Furnace+ 103 BP

Haven't checked what the difference in hit will be so see if have 2 teams is worth while but have most of the parts anyway so just need to do some quick leveling.

God_of_War wrote:I managed to get a Sin Prog+ so am looking at all Wrym varients. Trying to end up with a low cost team.

Aya+
Mars+
Ladon+
Flame+
Furnace+ 82 BP total

aya 18, mars 16, ladon 15, furnace 18, flame 18 = 85

hmm... I ran the numbers on that, and it came out to 39atk+24k(prog)
=63k/85bp
Efficiency Rating: .74

certainly not a bad team, although I might suggest using lower bp higher attack monsters than furnace and flame...

flame in particular is a rather high bp monster with relatively low attack.

replacing flame with something of similar value such as nidhogg yields

41k+24=65k at 82bp
Efficiency: .79

Furnace is actually a pretty good monster for the purpose of this type of formation building, as they are arguably cheaper than ring which I included in the dragon form in the guide

One thing I just noticed from the event notes which makes my 1bp formation moot is that first attack does not consume any bp. So use your highest attack formation on the first attack and your normal team should take care of bosses up to level 10-15. Only when multiple attacks are needed does efficiency enter into the discussion. At that point efficiency can't be calculated straight from attack/bp because you have to take into account the defense of the boss. As mention earlier, defense to attack is not linear so a team with higher attack and on paper much less efficient will in fact perform better as it can penetrate the defense and deal actual damage. In moebius, defense on boss scale linearly roughly 1000*boss lv so in the mid teens. That's 15-20k defense that your formation has to deal with which reduces your attack quite substantially.

Kyan

kyan wrote:One thing I just noticed from the event notes which makes my 1bp formation moot is that first attack does not consume any bp. So use your highest attack formation on the first attack and your normal team should take care of bosses up to level 10-15. Only when multiple attacks are needed does efficiency enter into the discussion. At that point efficiency can't be calculated straight from attack/bp because you have to take into account the defense of the boss. As mention earlier, defense to attack is not linear so a team with higher attack and on paper much less efficient will in fact perform better as it can penetrate the defense and deal actual damage. In moebius, defense on boss scale linearly roughly 1000*boss lv so in the mid teens. That's 15-20k defense that your formation has to deal with which reduces your attack quite substantially.

Kyan

this event also has the 20% bonus for full formation, which validates full strength attacks (as opposed to mobius, where I remember just spending whatever spare bp I had on those 60%-80% attacks). Therefore, multiple boosted attacks from a complete low bp form should have a positive effective, as opposed to say... one full attack with a high bp form, then an 80% attack which will not have the 20% bonus.

It's been stated about the high attack teams being functional with lower efficiency (e.g. kheimon's 94k/140bp team, and as a disclaimer about the lowbp brutes w/o prog) due to the whole penetration issue.

I suppose there should be a section about that rather than two side-notes, but you made an excellent point about some of the assumptions I made being premature without operational knowledge of the event itself, and to that end, I think a real examination and guide pertaining to the whole penetration issue may have to wait until the actual event and some observation and statistics.

But I absolutely agree that first-strike will be an excellent opportunity to use those high bp, AA+ etc... teams. (which on a personal note makes me very happy about the sacrifice discount, I am hustling to get my 4AA+s maxed and ready for some first-strikage in this event, and I can even add aya to them since they're all wyrms , admittedly I've been working on maxing only 3 of them to use in a hybrid form with 2 A wyrms, but this event seems like one of those "opportunity comes a-knockin" things that's telling me to go ahead and max em all)


Keep the conversation comin folks! Really appreciate the contributions, and I look forward to more!

I haven't run an algorithm on the bestiary to find the most efficient formations, I've mainly been going off of things I happened to remember (e.g. hey! WWO is 16bp and has pretty good attack!, or hey! Astaroth is 20bp and has pretty crap attack!) which probably skews the impulse forms to superior efficiency since I'm not as familiar with psycho and covert monsters as I am with impulse. That means it is highly likely (practically guaranteed) that there are better ways to do this for psycho and covert than I mentioned so far and I look forward to hearing about them

What do you guys think about this offer:

MLD+M(3) for Aya+ (lvl1) , Deep Dark Demon A, Devil of Abyss A

I was initially excited about this this morning, but I started seeing the auction prices on Aya falling so I'm a lot less enthusiastic. Reading this thread has made me even less enthusiastic.

Still, I'm halfway leaning towards it.

The most efficient formation is Prog + 1 bp monster x4

This will give 4842 x 6 + 1000 (reaper of seas+) 910 (kobald+) 850 (Fairy+) 600 (reaper of seas reg)

29052 + 1000 + 910 + 850 + 600 = 32412
32412 * 1.10 (same guild bonus) = 35653
35653 * 1.2 (full attack bonus) = 42783
This gives you 1.944:1 damage ratio

I have no idea how if the guild achieve bonus works in this even at all, but if it does it would be:
42783 * 1.055 = 45136
or 2.051:1 damage ratio

The progs on the AH are incredibly affordable atm. I have a covert one up for only gold atm. And if I get a bid for 2m+ I will take it instantly which is less then 20 ep in value and most everyone has gold as its easy to get.

This formation is actually even more "efficient" before armor is concidered then a full 5x prog team.

TheUndeadFish1 wrote:The most efficient formation is Prog + 1 bp monster x4

This will give 4842 x 6 + 1000 (reaper of seas+) 910 (kobald+) 850 (Fairy+) 600 (reaper of seas reg)

29052 + 1000 + 910 + 850 + 600 = 32412
32412 * 1.10 (same guild bonus) = 35653
35653 * 1.2 (full attack bonus) = 42783
This gives you 1.944:1 damage ratio

I have no idea how if the guild achieve bonus works in this even at all, but if it does it would be:
42783 * 1.055 = 45136
or 2.051:1 damage ratio

The progs on the AH are incredibly affordable atm. I have a covert one up for only gold atm. And if I get a bid for 2m+ I will take it instantly which is less then 20 ep in value and most everyone has gold as its easy to get.

This formation is actually even more "efficient" before armor is concidered then a full 5x prog team.

The achievement bonus applies as it applies to your monster regardless of how formation are put together so the most efficient formation is 5x prog. Yes price of prog has drop quite a lot and it will continue to do so as more comes out.

BTW. gold is getting scarce as guild facilities are getting upgraded it cost 10 million or more for 1 facility upgrade and of course lots of ppl are taking advantage of the half price sacrifice and leveling monster so 20ep for a covert prog+ is reasonable but not necessarily cheap. Its about the going rate. 2m+ gold is likely to be worth more than 20ep soon.

Kyan

Uh oh.. Go harrass him now! I didn't say it!
(Though he did go into more detail. Good job. ^^)

If this event is like Mobius.. the guild achievement and combos do in fact apply.. HOWEVER.. they are not added like that. I think that you take the final formation attack and then add onto that the BASE (without combos/achievements) attack of the prog multiplied by 5x (since the prog is already counted once in the final formation attack). For multiple progs.. you would multiply the second number by however many there are.
I may be wrong though.. and it may be a little more complicated. But I did notice in Mobius that the final formation attack with a single prog was not in fact multiplied by 6x.

Event Horizon wrote:Uh oh.. Go harrass him now! I didn't say it!
(Though he did go into more detail. Good job. ^^)

If this event is like Mobius.. the guild achievement and combos do in fact apply.. HOWEVER.. they are not added like that. I think that you take the final formation attack and then add onto that the BASE (without combos/achievements) attack of the prog multiplied by 5x (since the prog is already counted once in the final formation attack). For multiple progs.. you would multiply the second number by however many there are.
I may be wrong though.. and it may be a little more complicated. But I did notice in Mobius that the final formation attack with a single prog was not in fact multiplied by 6x.

It doesn't work like that in moebius and in this one too. It specifically says in the notes that attack bonus applies only to the prog's attack not the entire formation. So basically you take the atk of the prog x6 as the atk for that monsters than add on all the applicable bonuses including achievement and combos. So for example Aya+ has 4.8k if you're sin with one aya+ that counts as 28.4k than you add the atk of the rest of the formation and apply achievement and combo bonuses. With multiple aya+ each is 28.4 k and you only get achievement bonuses as combo is inactivate by multiples of the same cards.

Kyan

Besides having a lower ratio (1.775 as opposed to the 1.9) would there be any increased detriment to only use aya+ in your form and nothing else?

Shinzengumi wrote:Does skills on form matters?

In moebius no. This one we'll know tomorrow.

Kyan
Kyan's Store

Guvire wrote:Besides having a lower ratio (1.775 as opposed to the 1.9) would there be any increased detriment to only use aya+ in your form and nothing else?

There is a 20% attack bonus to using a full formation apparently from the notes but we'll have to see how that's implemented.

Kyan
Kyan's Store

kheimon wrote:
Ogame (prog)
Scorch
Sentinel
Bayard
BSK

This team will wreck some damage!

Lol quoting myself. Just calculated the stats on this team and it gets 62402 atk without counting any combos. When you apply the 4X combos (10%+10%+5%+15%), the hunter achievement (5,5%) and the same guild bonus (5%), you get 100,747 attack.

Finally, if you add the 20% bonus for full attack, you get : 120,896 attack!

kyan wrote:

Event Horizon wrote:Uh oh.. Go harrass him now! I didn't say it!
(Though he did go into more detail. Good job. ^^)

If this event is like Mobius.. the guild achievement and combos do in fact apply.. HOWEVER.. they are not added like that. I think that you take the final formation attack and then add onto that the BASE (without combos/achievements) attack of the prog multiplied by 5x (since the prog is already counted once in the final formation attack). For multiple progs.. you would multiply the second number by however many there are.
I may be wrong though.. and it may be a little more complicated. But I did notice in Mobius that the final formation attack with a single prog was not in fact multiplied by 6x.

It doesn't work like that in moebius and in this one too. It specifically says in the notes that attack bonus applies only to the prog's attack not the entire formation. So basically you take the atk of the prog x6 as the atk for that monsters than add on all the applicable bonuses including achievement and combos. So for example Aya+ has 4.8k if you're sin with one aya+ that counts as 28.4k than you add the atk of the rest of the formation and apply achievement and combo bonuses. With multiple aya+ each is 28.4 k and you only get achievement bonuses as combo is inactivate by multiples of the same cards.

Kyan

Yes. That is exactly what I was saying. Probably I wasn't clear..
A) Multiply the BASE (without combos/achievements) attack of the prog by 5x.
B) If you have more than one prog, multiply the number that you get in A by the number of progs that you have.
C) Add the number that you get in B onto the final listed formation attack (which takes into account any combos and the achievement).
D) If there are 5 members in the party, multiply the number that you get in C by 1.2. Or something like that.

Did you make a math error? 4.8x6=28.8. Or am I missing something?

If you are wondering why I am using such a round-about method. In Mobius.. when I was using a single prog ALONE. I multiplied the final formation attack listed on the formation screen by 6x. That should have given me around 35k+ atk. However.. in the boss screen.. it only showed 33.8-34.3k atk (I don't exactly remember which). The numbers you get by using the method above.. come closer to the true value.

Event Horizon wrote:
If you are wondering why I am using such a round-about method. In Mobius.. when I was using a single prog ALONE. I multiplied the final formation attack listed on the formation screen by 6x. That should have given me around 35k+ atk. However.. in the boss screen.. it only showed 33.8-34.3k atk (I don't exactly remember which). The numbers you get by using the method above.. come closer to the true value.

That's because you're adding 6x to the bonus. Its still very round about. Just take the attack of the prog monster x6. That's the only difference than a standard formation. It is as if your prog monster has that attack instead of its normal 4.8k. Much simpler than the method your describe. lol

Kyan

Event Horizon wrote:

kyan wrote:

Event Horizon wrote:Uh oh.. Go harrass him now! I didn't say it!
(Though he did go into more detail. Good job. ^^)

If this event is like Mobius.. the guild achievement and combos do in fact apply.. HOWEVER.. they are not added like that. I think that you take the final formation attack and then add onto that the BASE (without combos/achievements) attack of the prog multiplied by 5x (since the prog is already counted once in the final formation attack). For multiple progs.. you would multiply the second number by however many there are.
I may be wrong though.. and it may be a little more complicated. But I did notice in Mobius that the final formation attack with a single prog was not in fact multiplied by 6x.

It doesn't work like that in moebius and in this one too. It specifically says in the notes that attack bonus applies only to the prog's attack not the entire formation. So basically you take the atk of the prog x6 as the atk for that monsters than add on all the applicable bonuses including achievement and combos. So for example Aya+ has 4.8k if you're sin with one aya+ that counts as 28.4k than you add the atk of the rest of the formation and apply achievement and combo bonuses. With multiple aya+ each is 28.4 k and you only get achievement bonuses as combo is inactivate by multiples of the same cards.

Kyan

Yes. That is exactly what I was saying. Probably I wasn't clear..
A) Multiply the BASE (without combos/achievements) attack of the prog by 5x.
B) If you have more than one prog, multiply the number that you get in A by the number of progs that you have.
C) Add the number that you get in B onto the final listed formation attack (which takes into account any combos and the achievement).
D) If there are 5 members in the party, multiply the number that you get in C by 1.2. Or something like that.

Did you make a math error? 4.8x6=28.8. Or am I missing something?

If you are wondering why I am using such a round-about method. In Mobius.. when I was using a single prog ALONE. I multiplied the final formation attack listed on the formation screen by 6x. That should have given me around 35k+ atk. However.. in the boss screen.. it only showed 33.8-34.3k atk (I don't exactly remember which). The numbers you get by using the method above.. come closer to the true value.

kyan wrote:

Event Horizon wrote:
If you are wondering why I am using such a round-about method. In Mobius.. when I was using a single prog ALONE. I multiplied the final formation attack listed on the formation screen by 6x. That should have given me around 35k+ atk. However.. in the boss screen.. it only showed 33.8-34.3k atk (I don't exactly remember which). The numbers you get by using the method above.. come closer to the true value.

That's because you're adding 6x to the bonus. Its still very round about. Just take the attack of the prog monster x6. That's the only difference than a standard formation. It is as if your prog monster has that attack instead of its normal 4.8k. Much simpler than the method your describe. lol

Kyan

maybe my reading comprehension is terrible, but I'm confused... I feel like you guys are saying the same thing.

Why don't you both do the same sample formation and say what you think the final attack is?

e.g.
Leader: Aya
Ladon
Mars
Uranus
Nidhogg

all +m
impulse, wyrm, rarity, level 4x combo

0 achievement
0 facilities

39k/39k/36k

I've been calculating these by adding (4.8k x 5) (5x Aya's attack) to the post-combo score, for a total attack of 39k+24k=63k

which seems to be what the both of you are saying too... If this is not the case, could you please explain what the final attack of the sample formation is by way of your understanding?

I think going into greater detail about the whole process is far more confusing that just comparing results

larry378 wrote:
I've been calculating these by adding (4.8k x 5) (5x Aya's attack) to the post-combo score, for a total attack of 39k+24k=63k

The event page talks of 6X attack for progs rather than 5X as you seem to be saying.

kheimon wrote:

larry378 wrote:
I've been calculating these by adding (4.8k x 5) (5x Aya's attack) to the post-combo score, for a total attack of 39k+24k=63k

The event page talks of 6X attack for progs rather than 5X as you seem to be saying.

well x+(5*x) = 6x...

I'm just assuming the full 6x doesn't reap the benefits of all combos, only the base score does, and the additional increments are added as a static bonus to the post-combo original score (I am using the post combo method)



combo in the above sample is *1.15 for rarity/level

Hmmm, didn't realize the prog bonus would apply AFTER the combos...

For the high bp beast team with Ogame+ it gives a total of 100k atk with post-combo prog bonus and 120k attack with pre-combo prog bonus...

That's a huge difference, i feel kinda sad right now

kheimon wrote:Hmmm, didn't realize the prog bonus would apply AFTER the combos...

For the high bp beast team with Ogame+ it gives a total of 100k atk with post-combo prog bonus and 120k attack with pre-combo prog bonus...

That's a huge difference, i feel kinda sad right now

Actually, we don't really know if the prog bonus will be before or after combo.

I just decided to err on the side of caution in case they don't. It would be pretty suck to build one of these teams and end with 10+% less efficiency due to an overly ambitious assumption.

Finding out you have a couple more points of efficiency is something I don't imagine would bother anybody

How was it calculated in Mobius, anybody know? Didnt have a prog back then...

So where is this 4.8 number coming from anyways? I thought they all had an attack rating of 4239.