Psycho Underworld Scamming Issue.

by **Xanndal** Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:51 am

The following quote is a discussion I opened to BigMac, leader of clan Psycho Underworld™, on the GameFAQs forum. The original thread is linked below.

A Thread opened for discussion between an issue in game between me -representing Niko [an] a handful of players- vs. BigMac[, representing his clan]. The premise is his clan is scamming people based off of the argument presented by Niko. BigMac said that he has picture proofs of that not being the case and instead it was Niko who was scamming.

The strength of his proof will depend on the content of the pictures. If the pictures are indeed telltale sign of the later, then it will clear his clan's name, if it provides no proof or evidence thereof in the matter then argument of Niko holds ground that Psycho Under[world™] is a scamming clan.

However, before BigMac can present his "picture proofs" a summary of Niko's side will be presented. This should be a intellectual discussion between me and BigMac, so if any moderator deem this thread getting off topic you are welcome to any administrative moderation.
-----

Summary of Niko's side of the story goes as follow:
Niko was offered to buy a Gala+m (20) DEA at 500 ep by Bucktown, a member of psycho under[world™]. He tells Bucktown that he will think about it and answer tomorrow. Niko then finds Kollosus, a clan member of Psycho Under[world™], for advice on the purchase. Bucktown alledgedly had [Malang] offer separately to Niko to buy the same monster for 800 ep. Niko falling for greed buys into the pyramid scheme and buys the monster at 500 ep. Friend of Bucktown refuses to buy the monster at 800 ep afterwards.

Evidence of legitimacy of Niko's argument by statements from Recon (A member of Psycho Under[world™]):
1.) "I know what happened in that trade and you should be lucky you got it for 500 ep."
Suggesting that the trade did involve the 500 ep being used to buy the Gala+m (20) DEA.

Evidence of legitimacy of Niko's argument by statement from Kollosus (Also a member of Psycho Under[world™]):
1.) "500 EP was a fair price."
Further support that the transaction was at 500 EP.

2.) "Your stupid. you fell for it."
Suggesting that a pyramid scheme was indeed deployed to trick Niko into buying the monster.

3.) "Bucktown didn't scam, you're the one who tried to scam us by selling it at 800 EP."
Additional support that the pyramid scheme was indeed deployed by Psycho Under[world™] to trick Niko into attempting to profit from the transaction.

[Support that this pyramid scheme was directly from within Psycho Underworld™ is from the second part of the statement where Kollosus blabs, "scam us by selling it at 800 EP." Suggesting that it was a member within their clan that offered the second hand purchase.]*

Conclusion:
Yes, Niko fell for it based off of these statements. Yes, that may sound like he's stupid [since he fell for it and found counsel with a clan member of the seller]. Except, the problem is that he's being accused of being a scammer by Psycho Under[world™] base off of these statements. Instead these statements all points to the fact that Psycho Underworld scammed Niko instead.

Additional Notes:
Multiple members of Psycho Under[world™] have openly threaten Niko, including it's leader BigMac stating that he will "destroy [Niko's] pathetic existence" for scamming members of his clan.

I have also been threaten by Psycho Under[world™] leader and members that if I take Niko's side I will be punished as well. However, I negotiated with their leader to see both sides of the argument before making a verdict to support or reject Niko's statement.

P.S. Ignore grammar of quotes, that's why they are quotes. Thank you for any third party willing to read this presented argument.

I have asked BigMac to post his alledged pictures of proof that Niko was a scammer, but he has yet to produce them at the appointed time. Except he seems to have put me on ignore instead both in game and refusal to post on the thread. Therefore, I am posting this on multiple DS community forums so that Psycho Underworld™ will be seen for what they truly are. A Scamming Clan. Thank you for reading and hope you guys promote this message across so that no one else will be scammed by them. Would be nice if you guys add this to your scammer list.

Original Thread: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/677526-dark-summoner/64519834

I had to fix Psycho Underworld™ across this since I accidentally wrote the wrong name originally.

by **ryesteve** Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:14 pm

I'm no fan of bully clans, but this isn't a scam. He got exactly the deal he agreed to, and it WAS a good price. People who buy monsters with the intent on making a profit off someone else have no reason to start crying when their plans don't work out. I have as much sympathy for someone like this as I do for ticket scalpers who end up eating their tickets when the event doesn't sell out.

by **TheFury** Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:46 pm

While I kind of agree ryesteve, intentionally lying to someone with the intent of getting them to accept a trade they otherwise wouldn't is at least scummy, even if it's not technically scammy. The fact that 500 is a perfectly fine price for Gala+ with DEA(20) doesn't mean you get to pull any tricks you can to sell it to someone. At least not without pissing off a lot of people in the process : ).

I mean, I have TONS of monsters I would be happy - thrilled even - to sell at even a "cheap" price. But finding buyers is a pain, and that is part of the burden of trading for EP. I could use underhanded tactics like this to sell those monsters, but I would rightfully be scorned for doing so.

All in all, I'm much more worried about the other scams out there that are flat out stealing. But personally I'm making a note that Psycho Underworld did this (allegedly). It's not enough that I won't make deals with them in the future, but I might be a little bit more cautious when doing so.

by **ryesteve** Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:59 pm

Yeah, I can definitely agree with you that finding buyers is getting increasingly difficult. This story reinforces that... I mean, we're talking about a skill-maxxed event AA+, and a guy is feeling ripped off paying 500 for it. This pretty much tells me that unless I intend to keep it, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense trying to rank in events anymore.

by **applesauce** Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:49 pm

people are just low on ep because of the many ep events we been having.

also, even if psycho underworld is not scamming per-say, they are now calling niko a scammer in their page and ads which if what xanndal says is true, is uncalled for

by **ryesteve** Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:52 pm

applesauce wrote:people are just low on ep because of the many ep events we been having.

I don't think it's any different now than it ever was. If anything, we're having fewer, because now they're mixing in BP events, which never happened before.

More than likely, we're at the point where everyone has excess AAs, so no one wants to have to trade EP for the ones they want.

by **Xanndal** Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:09 am

Thanks for reading guys, apparently they have decided to say I am a scammer because I don't agree with them that Niko is a scammer.

@applesauce
Actually the problem isn't that there is a low quantity of EP. It's that they aren't spreading around the market. Gtfo_on_me2 has 15k EP just 2 weeks ago. He put it up on the AH saying "Offer good". He's also apparently had a Anna+m (20) as well and a few other event limited AAs. I don't know if he bought them or traded for them, but when I asked him he told me he never spent a dime in the game. So I would assume he traded for them.

by **Ian5565** Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:36 am

This is not a scam. Period. A scam implies that you didn't agree on the terms of the trade. Your problem is that your treating the two separate transactions like they are one transaction. The seller had no obligation beyond providing the card in exchange for 500 EP as agreed upon. And the buyer had not effectively committed to anything. Words are not binding in this game and certainly not a violation of the TOS.

Your friend tried to play the market and two clan members against each other. His plan failed. That business, not a scam. All the cards appeared to be on the table. Your friend knew the risk involved.

And I'll just note that I'm a completely impartial observer.

by **Xanndal** Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:38 am

Alright, it seems that a lot of people are saying this isn't a scam.

I would like to clarify that a pyramid scheme is a type of scam. In fact it is acknowledged as a scam by many nations including USA, Japan, the European Union, and also acknowledged by the United Nations as a type of scam.

Here's a link below for those who don't know what a pyramid scheme is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scam

Here's a few links to nations who acknowledges this type of scam.
USA: http://www.fbi.gov/scams-safety/fraud/fraud#pyramid
Japan: http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/previous%20series/proceedings/1-27/~/media/publications/proceedings/27/ota.pdf
Hard to find one that's not in japanese so I found an article that is in english that was published in australia.

There are many types of pyramid schemes and they all go by different names. Here are a few examples:
The one deployed by Psycho Underworld is called Shill Marketing.
General Example:
Where a shill pretends to be willing to buy an item from a buyer at a high price. His unknown accomplice happens to conveniently be willing to sell the item to the buyer at a price lower than the shill's. The buyer seeing a chance to profit buys the item and the shill either disappears or refuse to buy it afterwards, more commonly disppearing.

Some other types of pyramid schemes that's very different from shill marketing are called:
Multi-Level Marketing
Ponzi Scheme
Matrix Scheme (a much more complex version of Shill Marketing, except a investment membership is required).
etc.

-----
@Ian5565 - he's not my friend, just heard about it and investigated the problem along with many other players who were willing to investigate it. Including a few high ranking players in the top 100 who I will not name since they do not wish to be named. I happen to be the only one willing to see to Psycho Underworld's proof that Niko is a scammer. I also happen to be the one who accepted the task from the other players of spreading the info to multiple DS communities.

by **Ian5565** Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:02 pm

This is hysterical. Shill marketing is an illegal marketing strategy used to generate interest in a product. It uses crowd psychology to generate said interest. People with other interests pretend to be customers of the initial seller and provide false praise. That's not what occurred here.

Your friend tried to manipulate a market he was not fully aware of... and jumped at the first site of a potential large profit, while not doing a proper risk analysis. Not to mention from what I can tell, he got good value. And since you're so educated in marketing, you know if someone does get good value in shill marketing, it's considered to be legal.

He got burned. And I should note that all signs pointed to him getting burned so lets be honest... he clearly isn't all that smart.

All the other schemes you posted are irrelevant. This does not relate to a pyramid scheme.

What you need to understand is that in a game like this, there are no rules. Yeah, it wasn't nice. It could even be argued that its unethical. The fact is, it's not a scam. You can raise awareness all you want about their dishonest trade practices, but calling on marketing schemes that have nothing to do with the situation and creating walls of text aren't making you right.

Edit: I want to further add that, it is not shill marketing because both parties identified that they were associated with one another thereby disclosing the conflict of interest. This really is a joke.

by **Xanndal** Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:38 pm

@Ian5565 - that's an interesting, slightly modified, yet inaccurate definition of what Shill Marketing is. However, I must applaud you for your way with words. Since the definition is very close to the original, but exclude the most important points on what a Shill actually is.

"Someone who works for a business but pretends not to in order to seem like a reliable source is a shill. Shill marketing is the act of using a shill to try and convince the public that a product is worth buying. Sometimes illegal, shill marketing is usually considered dishonest. If customers find out that they have been targeted with shill marketing, they often feel cheated." -Cited above from wiki

Again he is not my friend just an acquaintance. You seem to have this point locked on though so I suspect you will continue to categorize me as his friend. The Gala+m (DEA) that he bought was only worth 450 EP when he bought it. The proper legal term for the "good value" that you stated is fair market value and that is not what he paid. He was actually tricked into buying it for a higher expense (500 EP). Fair market value suggest that Niko was willing to buy it at that price with little to no hesitation without any external factors that would make him want to or have to buy it. In addition, fair market value also suggest that he would sell it at that price to another player with little or no hesitation. His intelligence doesn't matter here, since he still got scammed. If every single person had their intelligence factored into when they got scammed then, does it make it alright for someone dumb to be scammed? If you say yes, then I highly question the legitimacy of your business stratagem.

Yes, a game has no rules apart from the ones the developers list. Communities can create norms that are most often unsaid rules. If it a community is against scammers, then scammers will know they are placing themselves in such a community. If the players don't do something to deal with scammers, then scammers will become a lot more rampant as ignorance of scams become more apparent.

I also want to further add that Malang is in Psycho Underworld therefore he was a shill. Kollosus just happens to be a bad choice that Niko took counsel with on part of this deal.

by **JessicaMD** Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:36 pm

omg wow guys, it's just a phone game.

This doesn't really sound like a scam or an exploit, Niko just got outmaneuvered in trade.

I don't see this being any different from lowballing, or highballing (like when people ask for ridiculous prices assuming the buyer is an idiot). They are unscrupulous, but not against the rules. just exploitations of someone's ignorance.

What else is an exploitation of someone's ignorance for personal gain? Attacking someone who has a worse formation than yours.

I'm pretty sure aside from your player level, "experience" is measured through how familiar you are with the market, the major formations, effective use of resources (stacking skills before saccing, not using ep when you still have a bunch of energy) and popular scams (like catalog)... And in a battle or trade, the more experienced player will usually come out on top.

I mean this game is supposed to be somewhat competitive right?

by **Maduk** Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:48 pm

I'm reading all this and I Would just like to check - Im a fairly new player and know no-one involved

1) The monster was purchased at 500EP? and was worth 450EP and is worth 450 EP now? or is it worth more?
2) is the complaint that a) he was over charged and duped with regards to FORECASTED profits which in no way had a guaruntee and which were the hook based on his own greed?. b) that by working within their own clan they out smarted the original purchaser who was fully aware they were in the same clan? who was quite willing to effectively "Rip-off" another player in the aforementioned clan?

Id say you were on morally shaky grounds both sides of the fence

1) Misleading
2) Greedy

Fight it out which is in the wrong but frankly a thread which draws on commericial / legal and professional distinctions within a game of this type is inappropriate. What happened to sportsmanship and fair play and a bit of common sense theres nothing wrong with trying to turn a profit but there are degrees of exploitation i wouldnt go to.

As me old mum would say "I'd bash their bloody heads together" and leave it at that.

/ Mads Tuppence

by **Ian5565** Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:58 pm

I find it interesting that you cite a source that I undoubtedly works against you. In your quote you clearly identify that a shill is an individual who is unbeknown to the buyer. Nico (or your friend) was clearly aware that both the person he was buying from, was from the same clan as the person he was hoping to flip that same product to.

To provide and analogy which may help. It's like you're buying a product from a store. You can't walk around that same store and find another employee wearing a name tag and take buying advice from him. You should expect his inherent bias and potentially adverse interest when receiving his advice.

As for the community standards. They are important, yes... But not binding. Failure to abide by those standards does not imply a scam. Dishonesty maybe.. Bad ethics, probably... But not a scam. Make people aware but don't slander. Scamming in this game is something completely different and is usually associated with hacking and gifting.

I never said it was good business practice to take advantage of the less intelligent. But it's also not great business practice to price your wwsp at 100 EP. Each person picks their own ethical code to abide by... As far as I'm concerned you have no place judging psycho underworld for picking theirs.

by **applesauce** Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:41 pm

Ian5565 wrote:

To provide and analogy which may help. It's like you're buying a product from a store. You can't walk around that same store and find another employee wearing a name tag and take buying advice from him. You should expect his inherent bias and potentially adverse interest when receiving his advice.

i disagree with this part, if im in a store and one employee(at one checkout line) tells me that a product is cheap and i ask a second employee(in another line) he should not be telling me that the store will buy it back at twice what i paid at his line then after i buy it laugh and say "i lied lol" thats out right fraud. and i would have a very good case at court for a refund etc.

now if the second employee had stated an opinion like "you could probably sell it for twice what you paid somewhere else", it would have been fine, but the dude did not state an opinion, he actively colluded with his clan mate to lie, and commit fraud.

note the biggest issue is that they worked together that's what makes this a fraud. and thus counted as a scam.

ps: 500 is a good price but price is not the issue here

by **Ian5565** Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:37 pm

@Applesauce

what you said only makes sense as a result of the implications of a verbal contract. It would be fraud only because that person represents a company which is liable for the actions of its employees. This is not a store, and these are petty transactions over a game where such verbal contracts do not and will never exist. In this game, I can commit then change my mind as many times as I want. This may lead to a bad reputation and people not wanting to trade with me.. but again, not a scam. Furthermore, you took my example and stretched it much further then it was meant to go.

The fact is that in this circumstance the person Nico was selling to and the person Nico was buying from both identified that they were associated with one another... By doing this, there is no longer ill faith. The person Nico was trying to sell the product to identified that he potentially did have adverse interests. It was Nico's responsibility to account for that. As far as I'm concerned Nico is crying because of his ignorance more then anything.

Like I said... ethically this is wrong. Nobody got scammed though.

by **applesauce** Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:50 pm

Ian5565 wrote:@Applesauce

what you said only makes sense as a result of the implications of a verbal contract. It would be fraud only because that person represents a company which is liable for the actions of its employees. This is not a store, and these are petty transactions over a game where such verbal contracts do not and will never exist. In this game, I can commit then change my mind as many times as I want. This may lead to a bad reputation and people not wanting to trade with me.. but again, not a scam. Furthermore, you took my example and stretched it much further then it was meant to go.

The fact is that in this circumstance the person Nico was selling to and the person Nico was buying from both identified that they were associated with one another... By doing this, there is no longer ill faith. The person Nico was trying to sell the product to identified that he potentially did have adverse interests. It was Nico's responsibility to account for that. As far as I'm concerned Nico is crying because of his ignorance more then anything.

Like I said... ethically this is wrong. Nobody got scammed though.

however they both represent psycho underworld and the clan clearly stand behind them. its is not a one-on-one deal and its not a matter of changing your mind, which is fine and happens sometimes, the problem here is that he didn't change his mind, he had no intention to buy at a higher price at all and was merely saying so so that his clan mate can sell this is what a scam is.

its the intention behind their actions that constitutes a scam. there were no mind changing, what it was, was that they worked together and LIED, that is not different than a person who says hes only going to cat ur card but LIES and keeps your card. the collusion and the LIE is the problem here.

by **ryesteve** Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:52 pm

You're not helping your argument at all, if you equate this with out-and-out STEALING. Just stop...

by **Ian5565** Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:27 pm

@applesauce

All that you're disagreeing with me on is the definition of a scam. Lying is unethical but does not represent a scam in the context of this game. This game is not real life. There is no marketing in this game. Psycho Underworld does not represent a huge corporation aiming to trick the average consumer. Furthermore, it appears that they put 0 effort into hiding their collusion.

Pulling the dictionary definition of a scam it states, "A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle." In real life, these fraudulent business schemes are determined by laws. In this game, fraud in my opinion is represented by a violation of the ToS. As far as I know, this transaction did not violate the ToS and therefore no fraud took place.

by **Xanndal** Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:00 pm

@Ian5565 - Ah sorry I made a typo when I typed my previous statement. It was early and I was on a need to go elsewhere. Malang is not in Psycho Underworld. That would be a my bad.

So the previous arguments that you presented is incorrect since it comes under the pretense that Malang was identified as being in Psycho Underworld. My appologies.

-----
Also to this moment the definition that you pulled up on a scam is a valid support of my statement. Before I get into it I would like to clarify a few things. This might seem off-topic so I'll be brief since there seems to be a misunderstanding. A business does not need to be part of a company and vice versa. In addition, a company does not need to be more than one person either. A business is possible with one person and so can a one person company exist. Both are totally legitimate.

Getting back on-topic, in this case the clan Psycho Underworld, as stated by applesauce supports the transaction that occurred. Also your statement that a scam is not a scam if there isn't a established law addressing it is also invalid. Since the definition of scam does not involve breaking of rules or any legal contract. It's simply stated as a deceptive strategy or fraudulent scheme to gain.

If a deceptive strategy or fraudulent scheme is utilized in any form of trade for gain of a single party that in itself is a scam. That is exactly what happened in the presented statement. The definition you brought up thoroughly supports this statement.

Also in a response to your statement that a scam - a fraudulent business scheme - is determined by laws. I would like to say that that is a logical fallacy. A fraud is really defined as "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage." The only things involved are the people or things directly involved. It is not subjected to a law and should not be misunderstood as a imposed rule established by a government. The necessity of a imposed law is also not required to categorize an action as a scam. All a government body does is impose a punishment to violations of laws or alternatively in a more elegant and politically correct way of saying uphold the laws.

-----

Also I would like establish that a scam is of the ethos domain of rhetoric philosophy. If you were to throw out ethos, then there is fundamentally nothing in this world that constitutes a scam. This can be extrapolated from the definition of deception embedded in the definition of a scam. If that is the argument that you are presenting then your argument is invalid since it is off-topic. That is due in part to the premise of this thread that a scam exist.

by **Ian5565** Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:32 am

@Xanndal

You changing the circumstances involved in the story I can't control. It definitely changes the argument substantially. I have to ask, how exactly did Nico find out that his potential buyer was associated with the clan?

As for your definition of scams, business practices, philosophy - I'm not interested in equating real life and abstract philosophies with this game. I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm of the opinion that if it does not violate the ToS, it's not a scam (in its truest form). Yes, as with any argument, you can curb definitions to suit your argument. But the fact is then, that a lot of accepted business practices in the community would also be considered scams. What he did was shady and dishonest, but legitimate in the context of the game so far as I can tell.

I'm done with this nonetheless. I don't see us seeing eye-to-eye and currently know more about this situation then I care to.

by **Xanndal** Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:50 am

@Ian5565

I did not change the circumstances enough to make it that much different. It's actually kind of funny how Niko found out about it actually... If Kollosus never blabbed it Niko and the rest of the players, including me, would've never known. Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for Kollosus, he did it on Kevin's wall in front of a ton of players. #1 ranked Rancor player on overall player rankings. As for the definition of scam is not a philosophy or semantics, but simply a definition. Breaking ToS doesn't entail a scam nor is it required to break ToS for it to be a scam. I don't think I'll go into an example of such since it should be pretty obvious.

However, I am not sure if you ever bothered even reading the End-User License Agreement for Dark Summoner. I will quote under the Application Usage section, "threaten, harass, or abuse anyone, hatefully, racially, ethnically".

Don't know where that is? Here's a link:
http://www.darksummoner.com/agreement.html

by **General Osf** Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:55 am

I got dizzy from reading these long posts... looks like some heated arguments going around here.

by **Ian5565** Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:24 am

Whether the buyer was tagged was a cornerstone of my argument. Ethics are subjective. Nuff said. I said I didn't want to continue this debate and somehow you managed to continue with a new wall of text.

Edit:

Xanndal wrote:@Ian5565
However, I am not sure if you ever bothered
even reading the End-User License Agreement for Dark Summoner. I will
quote under the Application Usage section, "threaten, harass, or abuse anyone, hatefully, racially, ethnically".

Don't know where that is? Here's a link:
http://www.darksummoner.com/agreement.html

What it actually says is "threaten, harass, or abuse anyone, hatefully, racially, ethnically or in any other manner"

Please
tell me you know the difference between ethics and ethnicity. They mean
two completely different things. And if you somehow are talking about
the conflict afterwards where the leader was offensive to you or Nico or
whoever. I never condoned that nor was it ever the point at issue in our debate. We were discussing the legitimacy of the trade.

As for the scam argument, once again you clearly just continue to repeat yourself over and over again. I acknowledged your OPINION. The fact remains that scams (again in their purest form) ARE noted by applicable law. You sir have no right to be the judge, jury, and executioner in this circumstance because you have no authority. The only way one can definitively determine what a scam is or the extent to which dishonesty has traveled beyond the scope of acceptability is by using the law. The law in this circumstance (the ToS) does not apply. Unfortunatly, you seem to believe that just because you're sour, the whole community would be sour and that therefore their clan should be reprimanded. I still disagree. It is also evident that by your standards, a lot of acceptable business practices would be deemed scams.

I'll ask you this, who gave Nico the right to try to sell a card he did not have in his possession? Nico did not disclose that to his buyer. Seems to me like Nico could be perceived as being dishonest. Should I start a riot? No, because I'm not in a position to make that kind of evaluation. But, I can't say I'd be surprised if many members of the the clan he attempted to swindle feel that way.

by **Xanndal** Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:03 am

I guess I'll just break down your post since I already answered most of these.

Ian5565 wrote:Whether the buyer was tagged was a cornerstone of my argument. Ethics are subjective. Nuff said. I said I didn't want to continue this debate and somehow you managed to continue with a new wall of text.

Is this suppose to be a "last word" game? Where the person who has the last word wins a argument?

Ian5565 wrote:
Please tell me you know the difference between ethics and ethnicity.

Woops! Guess that's a mistake on my part for skimming. My appologies.

Ian5565 wrote:
As for the scam argument, once again you clearly just continue to repeat yourself over and over again. I acknowledged your OPINION. The fact remains that scams (again in their purest form) ARE noted by applicable law.

Again you are repeating your mistake on a logical fallacy.

Ian5565 wrote:
You sir have no right to be the judge, jury, and executioner in this circumstance because you have no authority.

A pathos argument and off topic.

Ian5565 wrote:
The only way one can definitively determine what a scam is or the extent to which dishonesty has traveled beyond the scope of acceptability is by using the law. The law in this circumstance (the ToS) does not apply.

This is just circular reasoning and a argument of incredulity.

Ian5565 wrote:
you seem to believe that just because you're sour, the whole community would be sour and that therefore their clan should be reprimanded. I still disagree. It is also evident that by your standards, a lot of acceptable business practices would be deemed scams.

That's a meaningless quibble since it's completely off-topic and a argument of assertion.

Ian5565 wrote:
I'll ask you this, who gave Nico the right to try to sell a card he did not have in his possession? Nico did not disclose that to his buyer. Seems to me like Nico could be perceived as being dishonest. Should I start a riot? No, because I'm not in a position to make that kind of evaluation. But, I can't say I'd be surprised if many members of the the clan he attempted to swindle feel that way.

If we really wanted to argue about what could possibly have happened it would be a waste of time and go on forever until someone stops.

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