Winged Demon or Winged Brute?

Joseph Stalin wrote: This is where brutes shine because even in equal agility level circumstances, brutes attack first.

Now I'm confused. How do you even know this??? You don't get to look at the defence battle logs. All you see is the fact that someone lost to you. Maybe they had no agility monster, or maybe it was skill lvl 2. I don't exactly recall random psycho winged brutes attacking out of turn(unless there was a WWE with agi) when I was running an agi-less team and attacking random agi-less teams.

As an aside, it should be noted that the attacking team gets a speed bump.It would be unsuprising if you told me that your team went first every time on attack. That's worthless information, especially if you had a agi 20 WWE.

Rigging stats is pretty easy, just fish people with the appropriate team.

Joseph Stalin wrote:Shallow understanding? I've been trying to explain that having a team with high attack isn't necessary. You keep running back to your, "the best team is the one with the highest attack"argument.
If there is a best team it's going to be the best all around team. A team with attack high enough to destroy and defense high enough to repell. What good is your team if you can win 5 atk battles (albeit, at a slow rate due to high bp consumption) and then lose 20 def battles. Attacking is selective. Defending isn't. If you're dumb enough to attack an AA+ team with an A+ team the fault is in you, not your team.
Less bp = more battles = more honor points = more effectiveness.
If honor points and battle stats didnt matter what would be the purpose of the game?
Psycho demon team = less atk wins and more def losses. You're as short sighted as your team's purpose.

Blah has already addressed most your points so il just say regarding the AA comment. Its not dumb to attack an AA team if you can actually beat them. Demons have high enough attack to do just that, brutes do not. Your stats are statistically meaningless because we have no information on who has been attacking you and what their stats were.

Let it be known I'm not hating on brutes. I had the team and I liked it, Its just not the best team for tyranny. So one more time:
1. Demons have higher base stats in all categories.
2. Demons have a better skill distribution for an agility team (agility inherently makes it an attack focused team)
3. You need SGQ to kill high def monsters.

granted I have no idea who would go first if 20 agility brutes and demons met. But the point remains that even if they go first they likely do not have enough umph to kill three monsters on a good team in the first round.

@ ctigers, if any two agi 20 teams meet, unless the defense has preemptive strike, the attacking team goes first. That gives demons and extra possible edge against brutes: as far as I know, none of the winged brute teams have a preemptive monster. I myself don't bother with preemptive strike in my team, but then I'm going for so much overkill that preemptive strike is redundant in my team. DEA, DED, IPA, covert down and agi, it's hard to beat, considering the final 58k atk I'm going for.

As stalin has found out, the effects of DEA and DED are not to be taken lightly, lol.

I often ask people who've attacked me. No one goes on attack using no agility monster and the only people running low level agility are low level players, new to the game. That would be worthless information. Thats why I didn't mention it.

Brute team defense = 45k

Demon team defense = 47k ( am I wrong? )

Maxed increase party defense = +25%

Brutes gain 11k defense while demons have no IPD

Combine that with impulse down 20% off atk and def from any sin team and a cheap -atk spirit -25% atk and not only do u have the highest defense in any A+ team, sin players lose 45% of their atk, making their slightly higher atk meaningless.

I can guarantee 52k atk is enough to beat an A+ team with defense below 50k.
That was the point of the argument, silverys IPA is not necessary. Any team with high attack is naturally going to suffer on def and hp anyways. I hadn't even mentioned psycho demons until ctigers came along proclaiming he had the best team with its 4k more atk and 2k more def.
Demons is a good team, no doubt about it, but brutes just play out better in the long run.

Armitaage wrote:
As stalin has found out, the effects of DEA and DED are not to be taken lightly, lol.

What do you mean? U didn't win last night haha

i don't have to win to make my point, you saw the effects of those skills. with subpar DED i took out two monsters. with maxed you would have lost, and you know it. and with nearly maxed dea, you had a tough time taking out my kag, taking more than one hit to kill it. need i mention also that you was up against a 3 combo team because pit is lvl 66? those factors gave you a somewhat easier time than you would have faced, had my team been maxed with maxed skills, and running a balrog instead of paimon.

edit: def is only marginally better in the case of brutes, particularly against sin demons, now that kag is around. ipd is not too terribly useful, lots of ways around it. and the lack of ipa is a problem for your brute team; dea brings you from 52k to 39k. even with stacking guild down and ded, you will find that you're taking 2 or more hits against sin demons for each monster, at max lvl skills. that will hurt your chances of warding them off.

Maybe this topic should be changed to: Best team in DS all guilds included
It's gotten so off topic from the initial question.

Armitaage, u took out my wwe and pirate using all 7 monster attacks in the battle. Took 2 attacks from hope and valk to kill kag. Not because of his subpar skills but because of his leader bonus. Not to mention that was the result of team running crit up and celestial lightning. If you're upset without your 5% level bonus go level up your pit 4 levels , I'll attack you another day using the same team. 20% DED and 45% DEA really messes up your team dude. U'd lose def and atk while id only lose atk. Your DED would only cancel out my IPD, wouldn't affect my team negatively.

39k attack would still be more than -20% of your teams def after skills. I don't have a maxed sin demon team but I'm sure they have low def. Only way I'd have to get 2 attacks per monster would be if you had really great defense.

Tyranny teams have an advantage over sin teams due to impulse down. Sin teams have advantage over rancor teams. Sorry arm but psycho demons would also beat your team.

But sure, if I added silverys 25% +atk I'd have an even easier victory over your demons.

...stalin, i'm not mad about losing. losing happens. but you really are overestimating your teams effectiveness. my def is 42k atm, and i don't even have maxed towers, or maxed pit for that extra bit i need. with my team as complete as i can get it before getting balrog, i'll have 46k def, -20% i'll still have 37k, more than enough to ensure that you don't one hit kill my monsters, without that ipa. with balrog in the picture...def will not change significantly, true, but ipa will still be needed by you to properly stand a chance. 2k difference in total stats is a negligible amount when it comes to taking down a flame kag. also, remember that it's a question of what monsters are defeated first. if i mess with the settings, i'm sure that your top damage dealers can be made to crumble at the outset, while my team is all high damage dealers, except for pit.


edit: one other thing, kag is not my leader, sdm is. kag is the one next to my leader in the top.. kag as leader, you will never kill him with hope and valk quick enough for my lack of def to matter, lol

Joseph Stalin wrote:
I agree with you on almost all points except brute defense. This is where brutes shine because even in equal agility level circumstances, brutes attack first.

Don't want to wade into a raging debate but just want to share my experience attacking a winged brute team with my sin demon team. At equal agility winged brute do not attack first on defense. I have attacked all the top winged brute teams Jingleheimer, SDragon, Voth to name a few when they were running winged brute and I was running sin demon. Whoever attacks gets to go first. In fact, you only have to be within 2 of agility of the winged brute team for your attacking team to go first.

In this case, the psycho demon team has the advantage with 2 preemptive strike monsters typically SDD+ and Lewd+ and the speedy Selene. Selene is one of only a few A+ that has high innate agility so she gets to go first on defense against equal agility team and having 3 fast demons on defense works against almost all attacking team.

Kyan

I'm not estimating, I know my teams stats. You might be overestimating yours since you don't have yours yet. Also the level combo doesnt raise def, it's only 5% +atk. Your true def would end up being around 34k. Those will be one hit kills on non leader monsters. You should also keep in mind my leaders defense and hp, it will also be no easy task for your team. All brutes have 6k atk except wwe so ud have to make sure your team doesn't waste an attack on wwe. Of course there is no "attack highest attack" tactic so ud probably end up attacking wwe. If your team wouldn't finish the battle in round 1, it would lose. Silvery would only guarantee victory due to its cancelling of your DEA. Instead of 39k atk, my team would return to 52k atk vs your 34k def.

@kyan
I dont know dragon or voth but jingleheimer never has his full brute team in use. I'd have to ask when you attacked those brute teams did they have maxed skills? What we're really arguing about is max skill team vs max skill team.

Problem with preemptive strike is it only works once and usually never one hit kills. Lewd is always replaced by sdd and sdd is always skill changed because preempt isn't very effective at defending and isn't necessary due to dcc's agility. Although selene is nice ( . Y . ) sekh has better stats and same skill so it's more likely someone will be running sekh instead of selene

lol the original debate was whether or not you should include SGQ. I said the Demon species (I never claimed I had the best team) are better only when you said brutes are the best tyranny team. I , and most people here, are of the opinion that they are not. So I felt the need to debate that point. Again its the base stats combined with a better skill set for an agility team. Lets just consider this topic exhausted and agree to disagree because obviously we are both stubborn.

ctigers124 wrote:lol the original debate was whether or not you should include SGQ. I said the Demon species (I never claimed I had the best team) are better only when you said brutes are the best tyranny team. I , and most people here, are of the opinion that they are not. So I felt the need to debate that point. Again its the base stats combined with a better skill set for an agility team. Lets just consider this topic exhausted and agree to disagree because obviously we are both stubborn.

I never said brutes were the best team, I said they were one of the best A+ teams (didnt even mention tyranny) And I did this to prevent offending anyone. You, however, did claim to have the best tyranny team. I was only trying to explain that higher attack isnt necessary in a 52k brute team because most teams have defense below 45k and dont run IPD. Higher attack means less defense stats and more defense losses. If a tyranny player was so preoccupied with attack, they honestly should have joined the sin guild. They have higher attack monsters.

I'll let it rest though. Everyone could do whatever they want to do.

Goodluck in the event to all

Joseph Stalin wrote:@kyan
I dont know dragon or voth but jingleheimer never has his full brute team in use. I'd have to ask when you attacked those brute teams did they have maxed skills? What we're really arguing about is max skill team vs max skill team.

Jingleheimer runs full brute until recently. Sdragon is in the top 30, she use to be in the top 10. Voth awhile back until he quits was top ranked team. He is one of the first to have a full skill team. You can't maintain a high ranking as long as these guys have without a max skill agility. Ask anyone who has attack a max agility brute team, they don't go first on defense.

Joseph Stalin wrote:
Problem with preemptive strike is it only works once and usually never one hit kills. Lewd is always replaced by sdd and sdd is always skill changed because preempt isn't very effective at defending and isn't necessary due to dcc's agility. Although selene is nice ( . Y . ) sekh has better stats and same skill so it's more likely someone will be running sekh instead of selene

Psycho demons are one of few teams that can have effective preemptive because the monsters with preempt have high enough attack to one shot opponents. Lewd/SDD in a full skill demon team has no problem with one shot. I personally thinks its a waste to skill change SDD. I see alot of it and don't think -atk works as well as the original skill but than I think SDD is overprice as it is /shrug.

If you think that defending is effective with DCC's agility than you haven't fought enough against max skill team. Attacker's gets the advantage with equal agility so on defense against a max skill team, DCC skill won't help at all whereas preempt will. It and higher innate agility is the only way to be faster than an attacking team with max agility. On attack, the preempt is not that useful as DCC skill is enough but on the defense its the other way around.

Alot of ppl run sekh for alot of reasons. Not the least of which is that its far far cheaper than Selene. The high innate agility of Selene is perhaps not very well known. Unless you fought against one or has one it isn't obvious.

Kyan

Joseph Stalin wrote:

ctigers124 wrote:lol the original debate was whether or not you should include SGQ. I said the Demon species (I never claimed I had the best team) are better only when you said brutes are the best tyranny team. I , and most people here, are of the opinion that they are not. So I felt the need to debate that point. Again its the base stats combined with a better skill set for an agility team. Lets just consider this topic exhausted and agree to disagree because obviously we are both stubborn.

I never said brutes were the best team, I said they were one of the best A+ teams (didnt even mention tyranny) And I did this to prevent offending anyone. You, however, did claim to have the best tyranny team. I was only trying to explain that higher attack isnt necessary in a 52k brute team because most teams have defense below 45k and dont run IPD. Higher attack means less defense stats and more defense losses. If a tyranny player was so preoccupied with attack, they honestly should have joined the sin guild. They have higher attack monsters.

I'll let it rest though. Everyone could do whatever they want to do.

Goodluck in the event to all

Excuse my paraphrasing, u said it's one of the best teams. And for the price I disagree. And no I nvr said I had the best tyranny team. I dnt even have max skills.

Hey kyan is there a way to find out the innate agility of a monster?

ctigers124 wrote:Hey kyan is there a way to find out the innate agility of a monster?

not unless you peek into the database or by trial and error.

Kyan

ok so i went with physcho demons. This is what i have, please help me pick the best formation, assume all are max level, plused and various skill lvl.

-kotone
-taroth
-lethargic
-sekhmet
-dcc
-typhon
-blue steel devil

what should be my 5 formation?

as mentioned in the other thread, you have two viable choices.

choice 1
kotone
taroth
lethargic
sekhmet
dcc

choice 2
lethargic
sekhmet
dcc
typhon
blue steel


personally, i would recommend choice 1, because AA+ powered up by agility will ALWAYS hit first, after preemptive strikes are finished. since you have 2 of those, it would be sacrilege not to take full advantage of it; you will still have 2 combos, which is great for a hybrid rank team.

To sum it up, white winged brute teams are good for low bp usage. If you want high stats, they are NOT the way to go. The absolute BEST (in most people's opinions) A+ rank team in existence so far consists of

Victoria+

Sekhmet (inc attack)

DCC (Agility)

SDD (Preemptive strike)

Lethargic (Decrease defense)

This team is 4x Combo Psycho Demon team I used myself, with subsitution of SDD with Lewd, the reason you should not change SDD or Lewd's skill is because of my strategy, here:

Set battle options to "Attack Lowest HP Monsters"

Make Lethargic Belphegor+ Your leader, your leader goes first with exception of monsters with preemptive strike.

With 20 agility, you will most likely always go first.

Lewd will attack despite the agility, the point is, he goes first.

Belphegor will then attack.

If you move Victoria+ out of the leader's spot to the final priority attacker's spot, she will end up attacking last, wiping out just about any enemy leader with arctic tempest.

I won about 100 battles with this strategy, without allowing the enemy a single turn.

Lately, I have sold my Vic+ for Kotone+m and enough to buy a Taroth+m(20)

My new strategy will be to use Kotone as a battle tank, decreasing the enemy attack to where her 14k defense and 10k health allows the whole team to need to take a full turn to wipe her out.

Either way, The Vic+ team has 58k attack, about 52k defense, and like 40k health...

The downside is that is costs an assload and it takes up 130 bp per turn.

If you want raw power for an A+ team, this is THE BEST way to go, but not if you want loads of honor points and a full wallet.