best stats for mobious age/ vagrant land

JessicaMD wrote:everyone knows that 5x prog+m is the best way to go, but not everyone can have 5x prog+m

Apparently not everyone, since the post you quoted was a response to the previous two posters who were asking if a 5x prog was the best way to go... and they were concerned about breaking combos, not the cost involved.

ryesteve wrote:

JessicaMD wrote:everyone knows that 5x prog+m is the best way to go, but not everyone can have 5x prog+m

Apparently not everyone, since the post you quoted was a response to the previous two posters who were asking if a 5x prog was the best way to go... and they were concerned about breaking combos, not the cost involved.

Yea, cause I'm still wondering how well I can fair with a mixed prog team.

Ok just think that every guild matching prog+ does 3x the atk so 12k atk everytime. If you have a full team that's 60k atk for 90bp...you get no combos with this team just the prog combo of 3x atk....all u cam do is level the skill of ded which is very useful. For a mixed team u would get the combos and the 12k atk for the each +m prog you use...

ryesteve wrote:

JessicaMD wrote:everyone knows that 5x prog+m is the best way to go, but not everyone can have 5x prog+m

Apparently not everyone, since the post you quoted was a response to the previous two posters who were asking if a 5x prog was the best way to go... and they were concerned about breaking combos, not the cost involved.

ohhh, I see

I didn't read the earlier posts

I was just directly responding to the one.

So... in general

5x prog (correct guild) is the best possible team
Now, I didn't memorize the vl details when they were up, but assuming non-guild progs give some lesser but still significant multiplier to damage (say... 2x or 3x)
5x prog (other guild) is not as good as the above, but still better than regular teams (yess there may be some 5xAA teams with better attack overall than 5x nonguild prog, but I'm pretty sure that all-prog team (any progs) has the highest attack possible for low bp cost (even if the attack bonus is strongly dimished, a 8k attack 18bp monster is much much more efficient than a 10+k attack 30+bp AA)

in general, the prog multiplier is significant enough to make it better than any other monsters, superseding combos and everything else.

if you don't have 5 progs, you should use as many progs as you have, with whatever high attack monsters you have

if you only have 1 prog, you should highly consider building a team that you can benefit from combos with while using the prog (psycho brutes, sin wyrms, covert beasts)

but if you have more than 1 prog, and less than 5, use all your progs, and back them up with your lowest bp, highest attack monsters

Okay thanks for the much needed information.

JessicaMD wrote:

ryesteve wrote:

JessicaMD wrote:everyone knows that 5x prog+m is the best way to go, but not everyone can have 5x prog+m

Apparently not everyone, since the post you quoted was a response to the previous two posters who were asking if a 5x prog was the best way to go... and they were concerned about breaking combos, not the cost involved.

ohhh, I see

I didn't read the earlier posts

I was just directly responding to the one.

So... in general

5x prog (correct guild) is the best possible team
Now, I didn't memorize the vl details when they were up, but assuming non-guild progs give some lesser but still significant multiplier to damage (say... 2x or 3x)
5x prog (other guild) is not as good as the above, but still better than regular teams (yess there may be some 5xAA teams with better attack overall than 5x nonguild prog, but I'm pretty sure that all-prog team (any progs) has the highest attack possible for low bp cost (even if the attack bonus is strongly dimished, a 8k attack 18bp monster is much much more efficient than a 10+k attack 30+bp AA)

in general, the prog multiplier is significant enough to make it better than any other monsters, superseding combos and everything else.

if you don't have 5 progs, you should use as many progs as you have, with whatever high attack monsters you have

if you only have 1 prog, you should highly consider building a team that you can benefit from combos with while using the prog (psycho brutes, sin wyrms, covert beasts)

but if you have more than 1 prog, and less than 5, use all your progs, and back them up with your lowest bp, highest attack monsters

Not true. You shouldn't drop combos unless you have at least 4 progs in form if my memory serves from mobius. @3 the combos are still worth it unless your team just really blows chunks.

Someone willing to do the math may correct me on this, I'm not doing it again personally. That is what I remembered being the case with sturdy though.

@BigBad - ...when you put more than 1 prog in your team...all combos are lost...

The best team to use, if you do not have 5 progressions, would be just the progs you currently have + 1 BP C/+ monsters to fill all 5 slots in order to get the 20% bonus...

You should always use your HIGHEST ATTACK PARTY if you summon the boss, first attack will be no BP cost. If you are using your BP, follow below

Rancor Example

Terra Ogame + M = 4842 ATK
*assume x6 attack bonus

Assume the 1 BP C/C+ have 600 attack at max, matching the fairies all guilds get

Beast team lead by Terra Ogame + M...

Scorch+M / Myst Sent+M / Bayard+M / Cetus+M
695 ATK/BP 93,783 Total (including 4 combo bonus)

Progs Alone

1 Prog : 1614 ATK/BP 29052 Total
2 Prog : 1614 ATK/BP 58104 Total
3 Prog : 1614 ATK/BP 87156 Total
4 Prog : 1614 ATK/BP 116208 Total
5 prog : 1936 ATK/BP 174,312 Total

Progs with C/+ for 20% 5 monster bonus

1 Prog : 1986 ATK/BP 37,742 Total (including guild combo bonus)
2 Prog : 1891 ATK/BP 71,884 Total
3 Prog : 1860 ATK/BP 106,027 Total
4 Prog : 1844 ATK/BP 140,169 Total

Of course you would have to take into account the defense of the boss, which will make the ATK/BP of the higher total damage teams MUCH better than the 1 prog + 4 C/+.

assuming 10k Defense

1 Prog : 1460 ATK/BP 27,742 Total (including guild combo bonus)
2 Prog : 1628 ATK/BP 61,884 Total
3 Prog : 1684 ATK/BP 96,027 Total
4 Prog : 1712 ATK/BP 130,169 Total
5 Prog : 1729 ATK/BP 164,312 Total

BigBad wrote:

Not true. You shouldn't drop combos unless you have at least 4 progs in form if my memory serves from mobius. @3 the combos are still worth it unless your team just really blows chunks.

Someone willing to do the math may correct me on this, I'm not doing it again personally. That is what I remembered being the case with sturdy though.

that sounds improbable.

do you remember the prog rules for mobius ages? I don't.



but assuming no diminishing returns. (using more than one prog, each still does 6x damage)

using 2 sww+ms by themselves is better than the 5x psy winged brutes OR psycho winged brutes with 1 sww

(5.6x6x2)= 67k attack at 32bp (E>2) vs ~50k attack at ~80+bp (E<.7) vs ~80k attack at 80+bp (E~1)

E = efficiency; attack/bp

Diminishing returns might change this hierarchy, but that depends heavily on what those diminishing returns for multiple prog use were.


if a 2nd prog only did 4x damage

2 sww would still clock in at

(5.6x6)+(5.6x4) = 56k atk/32bp, E=1.75, which is clearly better than subbing in just one sww into a winged brute team for E~1


if you're talking about teams with overall higher attack like using sww with tlon/braize/ whoever else was around at the time, that might have been better than using 2-3 swws, attack:bp ratio is far more important than raw attack past a certain point where you need some amount of attack for defense penetration


on a related note; the people who KNOW the numbers and come up with a numbers: A-team, have it in their best interest to make these progs desirable, and a system where you need either 1 or 5 is just stupid from a business standpoint



Anyways, this is all conjecture without the real parameters. which if you happen to know, please fill me in so I can "do the math", but what you're saying just seems very unlikely for a number of reasons described above

In mobius the hands down best team was 1 single Prog+M, when defense came into play the best was 5 progs. You never used anything but a prog to attack one of the mobius bosses, if you only had 2 progs, you only used 2 monsters in your form. This event learned from mobius in that you get a bonus to your attack if you have a full team assembled AND your first attack has no BP cost on bosses you summon.

Math brigade to the rescue!

Lol i guess u were right rysteve. I just thought it was "common knowledge " that as many progs as possible (where multi progs work, like not tower event) was the best option.

so... after all that discussion lol...

I'm unclear if we reached a conclusion

or if there's still insufficient evidence to verify the prog and team bonuses lol

qpwoalsk wrote:so... after all that discussion lol...

I'm unclear if we reached a conclusion

or if there's still insufficient evidence to verify the prog and team bonuses lol

The definitive conclusion is...

If you have no progs...
Use a formation from the vl formation guide (on phone cant post link)

If you have 1 prog...
Use a team of that species with high attack (psycho brute, impulse dragon, covert beast)

If you have 2-4 progs...
Use all of them with 1bp monsters to fill the remaining gaps

If you have 5 progs...
Use them together


For first attack (which is free)...
Use your highest attack formation. Be it progs, or a 150+bp AA team

JessicaMD wrote:
If you have 1 prog...
Use a team of that species with high attack (psycho brute, impulse dragon, covert beast)

Not quite, when actually spending BP, you have to consider your Attack/BP and a full team is the worst ATK/BP you can get. Even with 1 Prog it's better to use 1 Prog and 4 C/+ 1 BP Monsters of the same guild. If you hit boss defense high enough that you need to use a full fledged high BP team with 4 combos lead by the prog...you are pretty much done with the event and need to coordinate with some allies to kill your bosses.

Beatdowncity wrote:

JessicaMD wrote:
If you have 1 prog...
Use a team of that species with high attack (psycho brute, impulse dragon, covert beast)

Not quite, when actually spending BP, you have to consider your Attack/BP and a full team is the worst ATK/BP you can get. Even with 1 Prog it's better to use 1 Prog and 4 C/+ 1 BP Monsters of the same guild. If you hit boss defense high enough that you need to use a full fledged high BP team with 4 combos lead by the prog...you are pretty much done with the event and need to coordinate with some allies to kill your bosses.

well, I was talking more about the 'later' bosses where you need to hit through defense... the bosses with low defense early on can probably be killed in a single attack from a team with a single prog in it... and the first attack is free, so having team with prog isn't bad for first attack, and anything that survives 1 full attack from a 4x combo team probably has more defense than a single prog/4 1bp team can handle

using that beast team horg gave as a basis the point where you would want to start using the full team is at 22,452 defense.

Equation to Calculate Defense to Switch Team
X = 37,742 - 22Y

*X = Boss Defense when Full Team is Better
*Where Y = Attack your full team has vs bosses divided by the bp cost of the team

**Equation is assuming 1 Prog + 4 C Monsters to get guild combo as alternative

Thanks a lot for everyone's input

Beatdowncity wrote:using that beast team horg gave as a basis the point where you would want to start using the full team is at 22,452 defense.

Equation to Calculate Defense to Switch Team
X = 37,742 - 22Y

*X = Boss Defense when Full Team is Better
*Where Y = Attack your full team has vs bosses divided by the bp cost of the team

**Equation is assuming 1 Prog + 4 C Monsters to get guild combo as alternative

do you know the rate at which health scales with defense?

especially with the first free attack, and the average 1 prog team w/ species combo team outputting about 80k attack (30kprog + 50k rest of form&combo), I am under the impression that a team built around the prog may be ideal in likely situations; contingent on the idea that bosses with 20k+ defense will be over 100k health, so as to leave a '10'% or more for clan members to finish off and claim a summon

I didn't record the health/def ratios for mobius, so I don't know what they are. but if you happen to know what they are, that would be handy in figuring out what the best way to use a single prog is.


what referential info I do have is this:

Zheet wrote:

Boss Level........Total HP........20%........10-15%

30......................500k..........100k.........50 - 75k
29......................450k..........90k...........45 – 67.5k
28......................400k..........80k...........40 - 60k
27......................350k..........70k...........35 – 52.5k
26......................300k..........60k...........30 – 45k
25......................260k..........52k...........26 – 39k
24......................220k..........44k...........22 – 33k
23......................180k..........36k...........18 – 27k
22......................150k..........30k...........15 – 22.5k
21......................120k..........24k...........12 – 18k
20......................100k..........20k...........10 – 15k

which was a guide someone made during mobius about maximizing gained summons from each boss... unfortunately it didn't include defense stats. but what I vaugely remember, is that everything below level 20 was basically killable with 1 or 2 attacks from an average high attack no prog formation (I was using sin winged brutes at the time), while the 20+ bosses were the only ones that actually required clan participation (everything under 20 was soloed).

being that 20 is 100k, I think it stands to reason that using a prog team when you only have one prog may be the best way to go (rather than 1 prog/4C) purely for the sake of defense penetration (over 22k as you described), but even before that because (once again, I don't distinctly remember, and I do not have documentation) of the sub20 bosses low health, which would allow them to be killed in a single strike anyways, take into account the FREE FIRST ATTACK, and it seems pretty clear that the team built around a single prog is more effective for this particular event (although I certainly concede that prog/4c may have been the way to go in mobius, the free attack changes quite a bit here)


if anybody has the defensive stats for bosses from mobius, that would be handy though!

lol it kind of feels like we're all making highly technical and quantitative assesments on something we don't even know the parameters to yet

I guess all this discussion might be moot if A-Team decides to run the event radically differently than mobius.

The health/defense will be different for vagrant so using Mobius as a baseline has 0 value, so the only conjecture we should make is the efficiency of the new mechanics coming up and the information we know about the progressions effectiveness…

1. 20% bonus for using a full team
2. x6 attack against bosses (keep in mind we will see x9 progs at release of the event)
3. First attack is no BP cost IF YOU ARE THE SUMMONER

If you have a free attack use the highest Attack you have regardless of the BP usage, obviously, if you are spending BP the decision comes down to what has the most Attack/BP given the boss’ defenses, health is NOT a factor since you can attack as many times as you want.

To simplify things I'm going to make a Google doc spreadsheet connected to my Visual Bestiary to make it as easy as possible. Check later this afternoon and it should be up and running.

Horg wrote:

To simplify things I'm going to make a Google doc spreadsheet connected to my Visual Bestiary to make it as easy as possible. Check later this afternoon and it should be up and running.

....aaand then, i'll make it a php script on my site, lol. jk, jk, i MIGHT do it, but i won't jump the gun on this one. horg's bestiary is much better suited to this work, lol, and it would save some room on my 500MB server space for storing scripts and images, lol.

but good idea, making a calc for this, definitely go for it

I keep seeing everyone put x6 for the vagrant progs....they wernt x6...for a +prog they were x3.... The progs for the event after vagrant failed had x6 progs so I think everyone is mixing them not the vagrant lands progs.

robinsonsteve62 wrote:I keep seeing everyone put x6 for the vagrant progs....they wernt x6...for a +prog they were x3.... The progs for the event after vagrant failed had x6 progs so I think everyone is mixing them not the vagrant lands progs.

I don't have a screenshot or anything but I definitely remember them being a x6 Attack for a Prog+ and matching guild. I'm sticking with that unless someone can provide the screen showing otherwise.

Link to my GoogleDoc Vagrant Calculator

*Edit* I did scan the old Vagrant thread, pre-blowup, and found a reference to the progs being x6 bonus.