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Looking for advice on buying a Nether World Dragon

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silentsong
Merciless
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Looking for advice on buying a Nether World Dragon Empty Looking for advice on buying a Nether World Dragon

Post by Merciless Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:37 am

Hi everyone.

Recently I had made a post, on this forum within the trading section, looking for a Nether World Dragon+. The responses i've had are from members of this forum, and frankly it has been quite varied. I'm basically trying to get some of your wise opinions as to what I should go for, if I should go for any.

1. NWD+m(4) - 25ep
2. NWD+m(9) - 38ep
3. NWD+m(5) - 40ep
4. NWD+m(11) - 75ep

I have listed the offers in ascending cost order. Now the cheapest offer I have received is 25ep, but it comes with the lowest skill level NWD.

The 75ep offer does have the highest skill level, but in all honesty that's worse than Auction House prices and I'd expect a NWD+m(20) and more for 75ep.

So my question is, of all the offers, which actually gives the best value with consideration to cost of lvling up skill etc.

I have discussed this topic with larry378 before, and he is under the impression that prices are quite artificial due to the recent baneful flames event and people being greedy. So should I continue to wait it out until people realise that no one buys NWD for 40ep+, especially if it is not maxed skill?

larry378 wrote:I would suggest going for an nwd+m(10) or (20) directly, you can pick those up for 20-25ep,

while
on the other hand, nwd regs don't really go below 10, it's one of those
weird circumstances that seems to be exclusive to NWD, probably since
crit is dirt cheap to level, and NWD is one of the first wyrms to be
swapped out for AA+ winged wyrm by sin wyrm users, so folks do try
liquidating their high skill nwds for great savings to buyers (e.g. I
went out looking for one, and negotiated a NWD+m(10) for 18, one of my
clanmates even managed to find a +m(20) being offered for 20!)

Thanks for your time in reading all this!

Merciless

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Post by silentsong Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:29 pm

Get the cheapest one and just level the skill yourself. Crit is one of the most common skills and is also one of the cheapest. It won't take you too long to max it out.

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Post by larry378 Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:34 pm

silentsong wrote:Get the cheapest one and just level the skill yourself. Crit is one of the most common skills and is also one of the cheapest. It won't take you too long to max it out.

basically this


crit is trivially inexpensive to max.

I don't explicitly recall attributing the price spike to baneful flames, but yeah, nwd prices spiked recently, and they haven't stabilized yet. I have NO idea why it hasn't gone back down yet... Really many of the new dragons de-legitimize the use of NWD... It's a nice winged sin dragon, but it only has crit, and very poor health/defense, while sin wyrms are all about health/defense.... really in defensive terms, a uranus+m has better h/d, and like 800 less attack. at only 2bp more to deploy. Mesh and Fire/Ice are both winged, and have GOOD skills. very handy for hybriding. or you can even pop in an aya into your formation if you DON'T want to hybrid guilds, you can have IPD,DEA,DED,Agi,Demon Down in a 4x combo team which isn't bad at all (mld,ring,aya,nid,kanna)
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Post by qpwoalsk Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:24 pm

Yea and Imo Going a strong hybrid of MAgma, MLD, Mesh, Fire, and Ice, and Lind is way stronger despite losing 10% guild you gain 15% and the three monsters hidden bonus is offset by the 25% attack bonus you get from fire and Ice not to mention they are all high bps, with lowest being 19 that is lindwurm, as opposed to using niddhogg and ring (15 and 19 bp)

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Post by Merciless Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:35 am

Hybrid definitely sounds very interesting indeed. I would actually go for a hybrid build had I not already put so much effort into my Impulse formation. I already have my team of: Magma/Kanna, MLD, Uranus, Ring, Nidhogg. So I guess what I should do instead of getting a NWD is to look towards going on the long haul of working towards my AA+ hyrid formation.

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Post by Defiant Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:17 pm

Would a hybrid build be better for all 3 Guilds? Or is it better for Sin Guild players only? I'm not sure what typical Rancor and Tyranny Wyrm formations would consist of.

Also, what if in future, the developers decide to increase the level of the achievement bonus for your Guild, would that negate the benefits of a hybrid team?

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Post by larry378 Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:21 pm

Defiant wrote:Also, what if in future, the developers decide to increase the level of the achievement bonus for your Guild, would that negate the benefits of a hybrid team?

well, that would entirely depend on how much they increase the guild bonus. if they mad it so that using monsters of guild had 180% of regular stats (as opposed to the current 105.5% of regular) when used by correct guild; hybriding would be idiotic. It really depends heavily on the number itself.



Wyrms (at A level) go like this at the moment.

Covert has an excellent 5x in-guild combo. without a doubt the best pure guild A wyrm team around, great skill distro, and winged to boot.

Impulse has a few good wyrms that follow a defensive rather than offensive strategy (due to skill distro, and the lack of wings on several key members)
MLD, NWD, Kanna, Ring, Nid. The ipd/dea combined with the inherently defensive nature of most of these monsters (when compared to other popular A species monsters like say demons) makes this a durable team. Its greatest weakness is its own poor offensive capacity. If you are running this team, and you get hit by high dea/imp-down; staying power becomes moot; and the match will probably end with monsters alive on both teams.

Psycho doesn't have a viable pure wyrm form; no agi. simple as that.


Impulse is a terrific candidate for hybriding, and with the addition of f/i, psycho isn't too shabby either.

In fact, the best skill distribution for A wyrm formations is mandatory hybrid.
MLD, F/I, Tiamut, Mesh, Lind

1 impulse, 2 psycho, 2 covert

all the 'essentials' of IPD/IPA/DED/DEA/AGI

raw stats A/D/H are 48/38/36 108bp
factoring in IPA/IPD yields 60/48/36, for a team that also has DEA/DED/AGI

which isn't spectacular, but isn't bad by any measure either.

Basically wyrms is one of those fun species that allows for modular teams due to the great abundance of wyrms out there.

hybriding is the best way to take advantage of that.


e.g. my sig includes my 'standard' defensive team.

I swap out my lind and ring for 2 other impulse winged wyrms when I attack A teams who don't use agility (namely high skill cov mystics, whose ipd/dea wrecks un-winged impulse wyrms by attrition).

I swap out ring for an AA+ impulse wyrm and set it as leader when I attack AA forms who don't use agility. I notice AA forms use target highest relatively frequently, and having my AA+m lead backed up by mld+m(20) makes him a great damage sponge while the rest of the winged wyrms can handily mop up the rest of the formation since they have impunity to attack because of agi, as well as winged bonus for extra attack. (I don't do this against A teams because the bp cost is too high for me to do 2 consecutive attacks with this form, while my 'regular' and A winged do allow for 2 attacks)
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Post by qpwoalsk Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 am

Like Larry said winged Covert Wyrms 5 x combo with Mesh, Quetz, Jupiter, Sky & Lind is best team right now. Has 77k attack but weak def and hp, I think total is only 90ish bp. Obviously when you get attacked you prob would lose but when you do attack you would win.


Impulse is best for hybrid now since using Nidhogg and Ring are just weak and they don't have increase party attack skill.


It is true Impulse Wyrms are defense orientated, lol but when you have Nidhogg (15bp), Ring (19 bp wit 7k attack meaning less hp and def) and Nwd (only 20bp with high attack again less hp and def) it doesn't do much for defense.


The best teams pure impulse MLD Magma Nwd Ring Nidhogg has 54a 55d 39hp
and for pure attack:
MLD Kanna Ring Nwd Nidhogg has 56a 54d 35hp


compared to the hybrid
MLD Magma Mesh Lind Fire & ice
67a 53d 43hp The 25% attack bonus from increase party attack more than
makes up for it, and mesh has decrease enemy attack too. SO you get a way stronger attack team and defensive team (I think 120Bp). And if you want pure attack going NWD Kanna Uranus Lind fire & Ice can get you 74 I think pretty close to the Rancor team.


By the way I got all stats from bestiary lol and yes didnt forget hidden bonus and all.


For psychos just don't go wyrms lol, even if you hybrid, pyscho wyrms are alot weaker in general. Hell Ice isnt even winged, only strong are saturn and FIre & Ice, and using tiamut for ded (I think he has 15 bp only 4.4k attack) isnt really worth it I think since you don't have high attack wyrms anyway.


And Lastly lol If anyone asks what about a sin 5x combo winged team with
Mld NWd Magna Kanna Uranus Well obviously you need agility....

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Post by Defiant Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:04 am

I'm interested in how you said the hybrid team makes for a more defensive team because it has higher BP of 120. Does BP affect how much your team defends against attack? I know that attackers have a Speed Up bonus, but never knew what defenders have.

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Post by larry378 Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:01 pm

qpwoalsk wrote:

compared to the hybrid
MLD Magma Mesh Lind Fire & ice
67a 53d 43hp The 25% attack bonus from increase party attack more than
makes up for it, and mesh has decrease enemy attack too. SO you get a way stronger attack team and defensive team (I think 120Bp). And if you want pure attack going NWD Kanna Uranus Lind fire & Ice can get you 74 I think pretty close to the Rancor team.


By the way I got all stats from bestiary lol and yes didnt forget hidden bonus and all.

hmm, I ran the numbers in the party calc and got these stats for the team (taking into account guild bonus [from an impulse perspective] which I didn't in prior calculation, and including 20ipa/ded)
mld/magma/mesh/lind/f.i
65/51/39/ 120bp

compared to
mld/tiamut/mesh/lind/f.i
61/48/36/ 108bp


I still think the second team is somewhat better than the first.

If you take into account the effects of dea/ded in a hypothetical fight between the two teams, what you get is...

mld/magma/mesh/lind/f.i (hit by dea/ded)
65/51/39/ 120bp >>>> 49/38/39 (skill total: 126)

compared to
mld/tiamut/mesh/lind/f.i (hit by dea, brute down doesn't do anything to this team)
61/48/36/ 108bp >>>> 46/48/36 (skill total: 130)

in which the pure hybrid formation comes out on top (I suppose the hybrid formation would perform better in the hands of a covert or psycho player actually since there are two psychos and two coverts, as opposed to one impulse)

overall, ded is going to get far more mileage, and be more useful than brute down when it comes to rank A teams. Don't get me wrong, brute down is pretty pivotal in the AA circuit since brute teams are popular there, but with the exception of the new UNWINGED psycho brutes (silver giant, lance, blade dancer, iris, inos, wwsp, wwe [some permutation of the former]) brute down is redundant since the typical popular A rank winged brute teams are notoriously low bp, and frankly lose to higher bp teams of equivalent or slightly lower skill consistently, and covert brutes don't even have agi.


Defiant wrote:I'm interested in how you said the hybrid team makes
for a more defensive team because it has higher BP of 120. Does BP
affect how much your team defends against attack? I know that attackers
have a Speed Up bonus, but never knew what defenders have.

High bp teams have higher stats in general which is always a plus, and defense is one of the places that high bp teams really shine. Attackers do have an agility bonus (which was apparently tweaked recently... it used to be clearly 2+n (n tend 0), so that a team with (1) agi attacking a team with (3) agi goes first, and a team with (2) agi attacking a team with (3) agi goes second, certain monsters supposedly having their own innate +1 modifier (e.g. paimon, selene [i can neither confirm or deny this, I haven't tested, and you would need pretty controlled specific conditions to test it]) and AA seemed to add 2+n, and AA+ something like 4+n? so that an A team with (4) agi attacking an AA+ team with (0) agi would go second, but an A team with (6) agi attacking an AA+ team would go first.... etc... so an AA+ with (15)agi would DEFEND first against an attacking A+ team with (20)agi
{if the math doesn't seem to add up, remember than (5) agi doesn't mean +5 agi, it's a percentage multiplier, the prior observations are in-game, and empirically verifiable if you talk to other players who have taken a close look at this}

However, they have recently tweaked some of this, and I have yet to determine the precise nature of the 'new' system, but suffice it to say that this is something which will continually change.

the short answer to your question is... a high bp team with high agi is the best defensive option possible. simply; the attacker will have an agi advantage, and the best way to counter that is your own agi (*with exceptions), and defensive capability.


it is impossible to have a fool proof solution to defense. hypothetically speaking, your OWN team attacking your OWN team would win the majority of the time

*even if you have 4AA+/A+(20)agi, a team with 4AA+/A+(20) WILL first strike against you

now, since we're not always being attacked by precisely our own teams, consider that you may be attacked by a DIFFERENT 4AA+/A+(20) team. your agility isn't going to mean a thing, but your DEA/IPD/Health Up/Guild Down/Species Down will be what will soften the blow and let your critters survive the first-strike and retaliate second round. Higher bp=higher stats=greater results of IPD/Health Up, while all the others mitigate the damage that you take first round by decreasing enemy attack.


the main problem with high bp teams is offensive; you get fewer attacks.

now, if you're not trying to get into the rankings or anything, that hardly matters, but if you ARE, you really want something you can use multiple times on a full charge. I've managed to get to around rank 100 overall with 210bp energy total using a ~100bp team for 2 attacks per full charge, and I've never had to do that low bp (one cast+m, or raid lords) whoring tactic.

so it may not be as critically important to everyone else, but I really try to stay away from using high bp teams regularly for the sake of maintaining and climbing the rankings.
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Post by qpwoalsk Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:33 am

Yep lol For rankings I think winged brutes are pretty decent aren't they since they
have high attack and low bp?

"overall, ded is going to get far more mileage, and be more useful than brute down when it comes to rank A teams"


I'm just suggesting using Magma not for brute down but for how tank he is. So what if I replace him with NWD for max attack, you think its worth it?


I find two problems with tiamut: the distribution of bp in a team is important too. If your members for example, can survive not getting one hit, that leaves a lot more chance for retaliation. But having 2 or 3 monsters die in one hit kinda loses you the game i think lol no matter how strong your last two are (unless aa maybe).
And the resell value of Tiamut with ded being kinda expensive to max lol I would imagine it would be hard...

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Post by LeadWing85 Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:43 am

lmao i remember when NWD went for "100ep or AA only"

then pow 1231234523456234 winged sin wyrms released lol, price went down the toilet so hardcore hahahaa i felt bad for the people who actually DID pay like 75-100 ep for one

im not sin, but if i was, and i was making a winged wyrm team, if i couldnt find a +M one for less than 10ep id just get a differnt wyrm as things arent what they used to be where he was the 5th winged wyrm you HAD to have to have the nice extra combo.

there are other options now, i laugh when i see people trying to unload a NWD for its "old price" too.
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Post by larry378 Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:19 pm

qpwoalsk wrote:Yep lol For rankings I think winged brutes are pretty decent aren't they since they
have high attack and low bp?

"overall, ded is going to get far more mileage, and be more useful than brute down when it comes to rank A teams"


I'm just suggesting using Magma not for brute down but for how tank he is. So what if I replace him with NWD for max attack, you think its worth it?


I find two problems with tiamut: the distribution of bp in a team is important too. If your members for example, can survive not getting one hit, that leaves a lot more chance for retaliation. But having 2 or 3 monsters die in one hit kinda loses you the game i think lol no matter how strong your last two are (unless aa maybe).
And the resell value of Tiamut with ded being kinda expensive to max lol I would imagine it would be hard...


quite true about team bp distro; especially with defensive wyrms; having any one-shottable monster is a major liability. But take a look at most other tried and successful A teams; sin demons, psy winged brutes; probably the two most popular teams in the game. each of them has pit/wwe who might as well not be there at all, except for the skill.

I would take a good skill over good stats any day; because skills affect stats.

Like I said, especially for magma/tiamut. If you pit those two teams against each other, the tiamut one comes out on top because the ded negates the stat bonus that magma provides.

obviously there are exceptions to this, and each case would have to be examined on an individual basis... e.g. if you are running sin wyrms unwinged, subbing in a guild combo breaker for a better skill; e.g. MLD/NWD/Ring/Kanna/Nidhogg >>>>> MLD/NWD/Ring/tiamut/Nidhogg is probably not that great an idea.

However, magma is one of those 'unjustifiably expensive' monsters alongside NWD, Valk, SDD, Selene, Tita, Glam, etc...

which is weird, because it's not like magma and NWD have a big ol set of boobies on them like the others. but whatever.

Magma DOES have good stats though, it's just that the skill isn't very good.

Ideally, if you do have access to the capital to use skill changes, magma would be a terrific candidate for wyrm teams (both sin and sin-oriented hybrid), but a basic magma basically costs more than it is worth.


LeadWing85 wrote:lmao i remember when NWD went for "100ep or AA only"

then
pow 1231234523456234 winged sin wyrms released lol, price went down the
toilet so hardcore hahahaa i felt bad for the people who actually DID
pay like 75-100 ep for one

im not sin, but if i was, and i was
making a winged wyrm team, if i couldnt find a +M one for less than 10ep
id just get a differnt wyrm as things arent what they used to be where
he was the 5th winged wyrm you HAD to have to have the nice extra combo.


there are other options now, i laugh when i see people trying to unload a NWD for its "old price" too.

you would be surprised at how much NWD is still worth... someone tried to trade their selene for my NWD just last week.

I'm not sure why NWD prices are up again, but they certainly are up again.
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Post by qpwoalsk Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:59 pm

"im not sin, but if i was, and i was making a winged wyrm team, if i couldnt find a +M one for less than 10ep id just get a differnt wyrm as things arent what they used to be where he was the 5th winged wyrm you HAD to have to have the nice extra combo. "

Yep lol and getting the winged combo is retarded since they have no agility.
But no lol a nwd is worth alot more than 10ep...



"which is weird, because it's not like magma and NWD have a big ol set of boobies on them like the others. but whatever."

hahaha lol I find Nwd and Magma to be smexy



"Magma DOES have good stats though, it's just that the skill isn't very good."

Ye thats why I think hes worth more than NWD but the recent price spike for those two are amazing, gone to 70 ep again...just for +m

Anyway I still bought a NWD (25ep 25 bp for a +max(20), so 30 ep for the dragon I think is ok) since I wanted max attack possible for sin wyrms
So now I run nwd, kanna, fire ice, mld and Lind. I swap in Mesh sometimes when defending but really, I don't see DEA and IPD do anything to be honest. lol

Well even if its true having tiamut gives me more of the edge, its a 15 bp wyrm...and belongs to psycho, the skill levelling of ded would be more expensive than nwd and later selling it I cant imagine who would buy it at the price I paid for lol.



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