Fixing the battle system

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Fixing the battle system

Post by JessicaMD on Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:26 pm

so........ we all know the battle system is a travesty.

what could be done to fix that?

I guess if we get all the ideas in one place, it might make it easier to send a thorough list to A-Team than hundreds of individual emails of "battle system sucks lol"

It's all wishful thinking, but how would YOU improve the battle system?


I have a few suggestions;

A. no more arbitrary battle restrictions! The level limit is fine (even though there are level 30s with full AA+ teams, which I'm guessing are dummy accounts made by high level players to get on weekly honor easily, 'start-overs' by high level players, or trust fund kidz who started off the game by purchasing a couple thousand bucks worth of soul points Rolling Eyes). BUT; if the level limit doesn't apply, you should be able to attack anyone!

B. this is more for lower level players (non-ranking players, since ranked people basically have no choice to attack anyone but other ranked players to get more honor points); on the battle screen show the potential honor point gain! I don't have that many honor points myself, and I'm not on the rankings so it's not incredibly difficult to find people to fight for 25 honor, but it certainly is frustrating trying to do that from the 'battle' screen that pulls up the random list... having to click on somebody and hit back most of the time since I would only be getting 1 honor from winning. I guess I could go attack people on the rankings if I really wanted honor points, but they have those stupid arbitrary restrictions which is even more ridiculous for the fact that those people are on the RANKINGS... I mean it's a desirable prestigious position that should have to be defended, which means that anyone should be able to challenge you if you are on the rankings... Also fightning ranked people isn't all that much fun since they almost always bank Razz

C. no more 'same guild' battle restriction! I get that it makes sense that you wouldn't really be wanting to fight people in your own clan, but there should be an option to do free battles (no battle point cost, no exchange of gold, no change in wins/losses/consecutive) with people in your clan for testing out formations and stuff. That would be fun with no hard feelings.

D. maybe some sort of extended rankings icons or something they could add to player pages... It's perfectly fine to have the overall rankings show the top 1000, so there is competition for a spot up there, but it's really hard to know where you stand unless you're on there! So maybe a [TOP 10,000], [TOP 7500], [TOP 5000], [TOP 2500] that can appear on your player profile and changes as you rank up!

E. Clan overall rankings, same as the regular overall rankings; maybe just 100 spots though, I think 1000 may be a bit excessive since there might be less than 1000 clans overall, or a clan would only need like 5000 honor points to be on it.


Anybody else have any thoughts on this?

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by LeadWing85 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:21 pm

i agree with all of this, but as for point D, there is a place to see your overall rank, even if you arent in 'rank'. its in your summoner profile, it shows your highest rank and your current rank overall

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by JessicaMD on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:36 pm

LeadWing85 wrote:i agree with all of this, but as for point D, there is a place to see your overall rank, even if you arent in 'rank'. its in your summoner profile, it shows your highest rank and your current rank overall

never noticed that! thanks!

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by larry378 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:02 pm

D might not be a bad idea for a visible rank on profiles...

I sometimes like to check on the positions of my ranked allies to see how I'm doing, since I know approximately how many honor points I have and my approximate rank, but having to go look at their honor, and then go scroll through the rankings is admittedly tedious.

there is actually one extraneous field in the statistics table when you're viewing player profiles, under latest area

Allies____________
Monsters_________

Game Index_______
Attack History_____
Defense History____
Honor Points______
Latest Area_______
_________________


I think Rank #### might be something which could fit there quite nicely



I love the clan rank idea in E, although they may have to reformat the way that clan honor is calculated... if rankings come out it will be extremely tempting to just keep creating dummy accounts (like those lv 30s with AA+s) transferring a good team over, and accumulating massive amounts of honor until it becomes difficult to continue (e.g. being on the rankings), and transferring to a new dummy account to artificially inflate a clan's honor rank.

The only fail-safe alternative wouldn't really be abuse-proof either (e.g. clan honor being based on an aggregate of current membership honor) because then all that would happen is that the "trust fund kidz" (love that term btw Razz ) could just go around hiring people off of the rankings to join their clan... and if you get the top 33, you're set.

I think Clan rankings really should be implemented somehow, but there are a veritable ton of issues which will need to be pre-empted and addressed to make the system fair.


Everything else I 100% wanna see in-game Razz and ASAP!
that stupid battle restriction has really been getting on my nerves recently, as now the only folks I can attack for 25 honor are in rank 1-100 and 101-200 brackets. The fact that the game just won't let me attack so many of them is simply infuriating. Towards the end of a day after hitting all my usual targets, I'm stuck with <10 honor point battles until the reset because THERE ARE LITERALLY NO MORE PEOPLE I CAN ATTACK for high honor yield.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by kyan on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:44 pm

larry378 wrote:
Everything else I 100% wanna see in-game Razz and ASAP!
that stupid battle restriction has really been getting on my nerves recently, as now the only folks I can attack for 25 honor are in rank 1-100 and 101-200 brackets. The fact that the game just won't let me attack so many of them is simply infuriating. Towards the end of a day after hitting all my usual targets, I'm stuck with <10 honor point battles until the reset because THERE ARE LITERALLY NO MORE PEOPLE I CAN ATTACK for high honor yield.

Oh please. You can't complaint until you hit the top 10-20. There was a point where I literally can't hit anyone for more than 10 honor point much less 25. The guild restriction is particularly annoying as the leader board is fill with sin players. Right now there are a grand total of 7 non-sin player above me. I have given up on the ranking and only battle to maintain roughly the same standing. I understand the guild restriction is an artifact of the "continuous guild war" for 200 ally point but its useless at this point.

They never consider the top end for battle point based upon honor accumulated. A system that takes into account ranking with top 20 giving full honor and scaling from there would address some of that but there are lots and lots of issue with the battle system. Too long to get into here.

The only other galling issue with the level restriction is that you can hit back against somehow who is low level that has successfully attack you. If they are strong enough to win against you than I think the gloves are off and you should get a chance at revenge regardless of level.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by Armitaage on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:05 pm

kyan wrote:The only other galling issue with the level restriction is that you can hit back against somehow who is low level that has successfully attack you. If they are strong enough to win against you than I think the gloves are off and you should get a chance at revenge regardless of level.

i feel your frustration with that, lol. but i honestly can't think of how to make it so that we can take off the gloves only against select players, where we normally cannot attack them due to level restriction, from a coder's perspective. it is infinitely easier to just prevent anyone above a certain level from fighting anyone outside a given level range based on their level. the only alternative i can think of is restricting combat based on honor points of the attacker, not allowing people to fight anyone who is more than say 7000 honor points more or less than you. so if you have 7000 honor points you can fight people with as little as 0 honor and no more than 14000 honor. but idk, given that i am on the top 100 overall, if i want to see this change, it would prevent me from fighting the top 3, which are 9000+ points ahead of me, lol.

one change that i want to see is an extension of the combat system to include clan combat and alliances with perks, where two or more clans can wage war on each other, which will remove all attacking restrictions against members of the enemy clans, allowing you to attack players ridiculously lower in lvl than you and players that are the same guild as you, so long as they are in a clan with which your clan is currently at war with. also, two or more clans can form an alliance, which is basically like a clan of clans, with upgradeable facilities, which cost 10 times what the equivalent facility is for a clan to upgrade, and the two bonuses apply on top of each other in battle. so someone from a clan that is not allied with any other clan attacking someone from a clan that is in an alliance will have a much tougher battle, due to the defender having an extra bonus. and when a clan that's part of an alliance declares war on another clan, other clans in the same alliance are given a time window of 48 hours to opt out of the war, otherwise they automatically become subject to war restriction lifting after the 48 hours are up(or if they choose full steam ahead, the war rules get in effect immediately).


just my two cents, lol, ignore me if this sounds way too complicated.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by larry378 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:15 pm

Reduce overall rank to top 100.

Remove all attack restriction for ranked players (if you are ranked; anyone can attack you, if you are ranked; you can attack everyone else who is ranked)

Weekly ranking starts from 0 and resets. (Gains are scaled down and added to total honor. E.g. you have 15k actual, 0 weekly. You fight someone with 8k actual and 5k weekly; you get 1 actual and 25 weekly

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by kheimon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:41 pm

I think it would really spice things up if monsters were given a speed stat, with great variations from one monster to another. Mysterious sentinel as an example, would be quite slow whereas blazing dragonoid would be very fast. The first one to attack would not necessarily be the one with highest agility, and you could see players having to balance their team between speed and raw power. Of course, agility would still be a key ability, but it would be less predictable.

A more realistic change I would like to see is a bunch of new agility monsters, at least one for every class, making a lot of new teams viable (instead of the 2 teams/guild we have now).

I like Armitaage's idea of clan wars, but the idea to have "clans of clans" would make some of these Mega-clans members even more OP than they are now, and I'm not sure I like that idea...

I would also like to see a clan ranking system, like some of you guys discussed, or at least clan ranking events.


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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by Armitaage on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:54 pm

the way that i envision a clan of clans being balanced is by restricting maximum level of alliances to 40, only 5 clans can join to start, and you get an extra spot every FOUR levels instead of every two, for a maximum clan membership in an alliance of 15 clans. additionally, alliance facilities will only go up to level 8 max, and like stated earlier will cost 10 times more than the equivalent facility at the clan level. so where you would have a clan level 5 upgrade cost 4m, an alliance level 4 upgrade will cost 40m.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by Flying Dagger on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:03 pm

Love these ideas. Anything involving more clan activity is cool in my book. I really like Kheimon's idea as well.
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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by larry378 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:13 pm

Armitaage wrote:the way that i envision a clan of clans being balanced is by restricting maximum level of alliances to 40, only 5 clans can join to start, and you get an extra spot every FOUR levels instead of every two, for a maximum clan membership in an alliance of 15 clans. additionally, alliance facilities will only go up to level 8 max, and like stated earlier will cost 10 times more than the equivalent facility at the clan level. so where you would have a clan level 5 upgrade cost 4m, an alliance level 4 upgrade will cost 40m.

It sounds pretty good on paper, but it lacks wide appeal... to most clans (pre-update) lv 5facilities are like an extremely long term (maybe impossible (when we started our clan, we were just planning on coasting by with maybe lv 3 as a long term goal.

At this point, such a system would just make psycho underworld/tpc even more ludicrously powerful.

Some mid level content is sorely lacking.. similarly to how they do the enemy summoners; from trivially weak to you NEED progs & AA+ms for a chance
Maybe instead of 10x gold cost for more d/a/h some other types of perks?
Priced to encourage lower lv clans to use the system

Like 1m gold (per alliance member) facilities that give some tiny skill boosts or benefita that clans dont have

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by Armitaage on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 pm

When I say that there are to be secondary facilities at the alliance level, the gold needed to upgrade them is separately accumulated from the gold that clans already have, so psycho underworld and tpc's 70m+ gold will be useless for upgrading alliance facilities. Also, alliance exp needed to level up will also be 10 times the amount needed for a clan of the same level to level up. But I do like the idea of other perks too, perhaps you can throw some ideas about that?

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by LeadWing85 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:00 pm

"Clan of Clans" sounds so cool, it could be an event Razz



....or a movie Wink

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by larry378 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:24 pm

Armitaage wrote:When I say that there are to be secondary facilities at the alliance level, the gold needed to upgrade them is separately accumulated from the gold that clans already have, so psycho underworld and tpc's 70m+ gold will be useless for upgrading alliance facilities. Also, alliance exp needed to level up will also be 10 times the amount needed for a clan of the same level to level up. But I do like the idea of other perks too, perhaps you can throw some ideas about that?

Posting from phone so wont be very descriptive

Attack academy (boosts ipa/dea)
Def academy (ipd/dea)
Hospital (probably a better name for this lol) (boosts health up, heal, revive)
Some similar stuff for guild/species down

Note: there will be a maximum amount of facilities so alliance members will need to decide what best serves most members

Depot (put spare monsters/ml+ for lower lvl members to use)
Training arena; fight other alliance ppl, no honor, bp, wl change. For playtesting forms
Custom titles (higher lv = more custom ranks/titles)
Clan logos; we all have that crest, how about little things we can put on it based on clan honor rank; e.g. a bloodstone or a moonstone etc... customizations increased with fac lvl)

And some other stuff like that.

Upgrades should have minimum alliance lv req (so 1 clan alliance doesnt buy all upgrades for 1/max clans cost)

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by Armitaage on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:13 am

larry378 wrote:
Armitaage wrote:When I say that there are to be secondary facilities at the alliance level, the gold needed to upgrade them is separately accumulated from the gold that clans already have, so psycho underworld and tpc's 70m+ gold will be useless for upgrading alliance facilities. Also, alliance exp needed to level up will also be 10 times the amount needed for a clan of the same level to level up. But I do like the idea of other perks too, perhaps you can throw some ideas about that?

Posting from phone so wont be very descriptive

Attack academy (boosts ipa/dea)
Def academy (ipd/dea)
Hospital (probably a better name for this lol) (boosts health up, heal, revive)
Some similar stuff for guild/species down

Note: there will be a maximum amount of facilities so alliance members will need to decide what best serves most members

Depot (put spare monsters/ml+ for lower lvl members to use)
Training arena; fight other alliance ppl, no honor, bp, wl change. For playtesting forms
Custom titles (higher lv = more custom ranks/titles)
Clan logos; we all have that crest, how about little things we can put on it based on clan honor rank; e.g. a bloodstone or a moonstone etc... customizations increased with fac lvl)


And some other stuff like that.

Upgrades should have minimum alliance lv req (so 1 clan alliance doesnt buy all upgrades for 1/max clans cost)

the part in cyan i would modify instead in this fashion: instead of boosting species/guild DOWN, they can boost species/guild UP skills(frankly, giving those skills instead of boosting them, as there is currently no such thing as a guild or species up). some sample ideas:

1. each alliance has a choice of up to three different facilities to buy from a pool of seven. the seven that they have a choice of are:

CaveWyrm Up, Creation Up
HouseBrute Up, Mystic Up
MenagerieBeast up, Crawler Up
NetherworldDemon Up, Undead Up
Fighter's guildImpulse Up
Paladin's guildPsycho Up
Assassin's guildCovert Up

House for brutes/mystics because they're mostly humanoid in shape. Cave for wyrms/creation because wyrms like to dwell in caves, same as most golems and trolls. Menagerie for beast/crawler because that's where we put them on display, though perhaps Forest may be better. and do i really need to say why Netherworld for demons/undead? i think that one at least is obvious, and a slightly more original one than Hell, lol. Fighter's are generally attack oriented, and that is what impulse's calling is. Paladins are generally defense oriented, and that is what psycho specializes in. and Assassins are covert beings that would just love to reduce your HEALTH to nothing, lol.

2. with an alliance only being able to get 3 of the 7, each one that is purchased will then be subject to normal leveling, with a max lvl of 10(fuggedabout 8, we'll do 10, you'll soon see why). each level gives you 4% increase to atk and def for species up, or 2% for guild up, thus allowing you to fully offset the effects of any species/guild downs, if your alliance has the appropriate facilities.

3. the part in olive, i rather like as is, i'd certainly support that, although i'm not certain that the depot should be added at the alliance level, would make more sense for it to exist at the clan level, imo, lol.

just my 3 cents on the ideas you put forth, lol.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by JessicaMD on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:49 am

Armitaage wrote:

CaveWyrm Up, Creation Up
HouseBrute Up, Mystic Up
MenagerieBeast up, Crawler Up
NetherworldDemon Up, Undead Up
Fighter's guildImpulse Up
Paladin's guildPsycho Up
Assassin's guildCovert Up

House for brutes/mystics because they're mostly humanoid in shape. Cave for wyrms/creation because wyrms like to dwell in caves, same as most golems and trolls. Menagerie for beast/crawler because that's where we put them on display, though perhaps Forest may be better. and do i really need to say why Netherworld for demons/undead? i think that one at least is obvious, and a slightly more original one than Hell, lol. Fighter's are generally attack oriented, and that is what impulse's calling is. Paladins are generally defense oriented, and that is what psycho specializes in. and Assassins are covert beings that would just love to reduce your HEALTH to nothing, lol.

This sort of reminds me of this thread we had a while back Very Happy
http://www.ds-forum.com/t4374p15-suggestions-for-ateam

I'm just wondering if guild-up would be a better way to go than guild down! I feel like guild up may be a bit restrictive to players of a single guild, while guild down can benefit a wider audience... I think every guild has every other guild down e.g. for psycho Clarissa; psy down, WWOH: imp down, co co cachu; cov down, or impulse has 1,000,000 cov down demons, Hilda has imp down, the new amun demon has psy down (funny side story, I've been seeing people marketing these as "higher attack than balrog"... which apparently isn't true lol,)

I really like the idea of combining some of the species facilities! it was pretty messy in the previous thread and would have been too many buildings

I could maybe suggest that Mystics and Crawlers be put in one place together since mystics are plant/forest themed, and so are crawlers to some extent... and maybe swapping one or two other things...

so that the final listing would look like

Cave: Wyrms, Creation
House: Brutes, Beasts (like pets)
Garden: Mystics, Crawler
Netherworld: Demons, Undead (maybe could be called dungeon instead? perfect for spoooky rituals and evil stuff, I think the name netherworld might confuse NWD and he'd end up there lost and confused wondering where all the other wyrms are Embarassed )

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by Armitaage on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:14 pm

True, many mystics are plant themed, but most are humanoid (tita, alraune, aruraune, underdark dverger, even the grieving mandrake, all have human likeness. It is only a few mystics that absolutely don't resemble humans, one that comes to mind is triffid, lol. But I don't mind having cave, house, forest, and netherworld(though idk about dungeon, you mostly won't catch zombies in a dungeon dead, undead, or alive, lol. The appeal of a netherworld is that it resembles a cemetery sufficiently. Also, guild down affects monsters based on the monsters' guild, not the guild of the player. Guild up would be the opposite of guild down, merely negating its effects. Like ipa/dea so would we have guild up/down.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by JessicaMD on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Armitaage wrote:True, many mystics are plant themed, but most are humanoid (tita, alraune, aruraune, underdark dverger, even the grieving mandrake, all have human likeness.

I just felt like even the people shaped ones are nature themed for the most part, maybe the best term is "plant people" Razz . I think they would be more for living in the woods than in a house...

also I think aruraune would have trouble fitting in the house Crying or Very sad



I guess the real problem would be the sin mystics, like fbf and ssk; but nobody really cares about or uses them lol


Armitaage wrote:Guild up would be the opposite of guild down, merely negating its effects. Like ipa/dea so would we have guild up/down.

I'm still a little confused about this... I guess my question in, if an alliance has say... covert up. and 2 species facilities. What benefits can an impulse or psycho player receive from the covert up?

In the guild down case, I'm interpreting that an impulse down facility would take effect so long as a monster with impulse down (be it a quetz, a typhon, or a hilda; regardless of your guild) is being used. I'm not sure if someone would want to switch their entire formation's guild type for the bonus... i.e. if there's only a covert up, Idk if I would want to just sell my psycho monsters and get coverts instead... But maybe switching a certain monster in my formation for one with the boosted guild down is something I would be all for

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Re: Fixing the battle system

Post by kyan on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:24 pm

Sorry I don't like the idea of clan alliances. Some of the big clans already have alliances and feeders as it is. Don't need to make it official and give them more bonuses. 10X cost in gold is no deterances at all. Gold is very very very easy to farm if you're motivated to do so. The new facilities cost 67million to get from 5-10 and there are clans that have maxed all three already and that just with their regular members if you have several clans contributing it'll take no time at all.

As for fixing the battle system. It should be easy to code in a check to see if you have win against another player within 24hr. The code is already there as a check on battle restriction. So all they have to do is one more check. Lv limit yes. win, yes. battle allow. Seems trivial to me.

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Re: Fixing the battle system

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