Current DS Economy

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Current DS Economy

Post by Maverick1986 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:21 pm

This post would highly benefit from my screenshots; however, I don't know how via mobile.

So, having some expendable cash, and seeing guaranteed prog, I purchased 5 X 11 packs.

Results:
Cov A X 2
Psy A
Sin A
Psy AA

Out of 55 summons, 5 progs. 50 unsellable A's. 1/3 even unable to use as stacks, and many of those 50 obtainable via ally summons. Here's my thoughts.


There are 4 major problems with this game.
1) Summon rate sucks. I estimate AA summon rate at 5% of paid DS. 1% of free DS
2) it's marketed as a free game, but paying in is required to succeed (in current Econ)
3) people love the game, but refuse to drop a single penny to support the devs.
4) Profiteering is rampant. I spent 30 EP to rank for last event. Got divine fists at rank 800ish. Start price for rank reward was 110. Now asking price 50 for sellers and 25 for buyers. Why should I make almost triple the profit I spent? 5 pots would be nice as a "hey you played a lot and spent time earning that", or simply an even trade for something I need. Trades are NOT accepted. But no one has EP/BP because of reason 3. Prices crash, people get frustrated and quit. Even less revenue for dev. Customer service becomes shitty when they are forced to make layoffs (speculation).
.
.
I'm trying not to be harsh. Blame for a failing game lies with all of us, including devs. Idk and idc why. I present this so that everyone may attempt to see all sides. Knowledge empowers us all.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by robinsonsteve62 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:29 pm

I've been playing for alomst a year now, longest I have ever played anything, I still really enjoy the game and I've spent a few 100 on the game so I hope that it comes back from these hiccups and starts getting little better.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by EdwardStarbuck on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:34 pm

@RobinsonSteve62 - I had started this long response about A team making it tough to invest ep into cards with the rate of release, the high soul point cost of potions and faults caused by players but couldn't figure out exactly how to word it so I clicked home and then saw that you had responded.  Reading your post, you said exactly what I felt, I love this game.  I enjoy playing it each day and look forward to new events.  I like the social aspect of the game and without that I don't think that I would have played any app on my phone for as long as I have played DS.  I, too, hope that it recovers from these hiccups because I hate seeing people that really made the game fun for me, pack up and quit.  Thank you for your simple, yet perfect response.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Maverick1986 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:10 pm

I should say, that I neglected one major part in my original post. I do love this game. Having some expendable cash, I just felt I'd post for statistics and get carried away. Really just looking for y'all's ideas, because the game is hiccuping hard, and I don't want to see it fail

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Event Horizon on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:36 pm

Maverick1986 wrote:There are 4 major problems with this game.
1) Summon rate sucks. I estimate AA summon rate at 5% of paid DS. 1% of free DS
2) it's marketed as a free game, but paying in is required to succeed (in current Econ)
3) people love the game, but refuse to drop a single penny to support the devs.
4) Profiteering is rampant. I spent 30 EP to rank for last event. Got divine fists at rank 800ish. Start price for rank reward was 110. Now asking price 50 for sellers and 25 for buyers. Why should I make almost triple the profit I spent? 5 pots would be nice as a "hey you played a lot and spent time earning that", or simply an even trade for something I need. Trades are NOT accepted. But no one has EP/BP because of reason 3. Prices crash, people get frustrated and quit. Even less revenue for dev. Customer service becomes shitty when they are forced to make layoffs (speculation).
.
I'm trying not to be harsh. Blame for a failing game lies with all of us, including devs. Idk and idc why. I present this so that everyone may attempt to see all sides. Knowledge empowers us all.
1) So.. you want all AAs to sell for 1ep cause the summon rate should be 50% for paid DS, right?
2)) Paying is not a requirement to succeed.
3) Refuse to drop a single penny? To support greedy devs like G Team? Give me a break. Where are you getting this 'No one spending money' crap? All the dark summoned AAs say otherwise. What does G Team do to get support? Their customer service has been shit from the start. And did you notice that your point 3 contradicts your point 2?
4) That is what you call.. profiteering? Why should you make triple the profit of what you spent? Uh.. I don't know. Maybe cause you spent your time to get it? But apparently you only value every 2 hours of your time as 5ep.

Conclusion: You want prices to crash further. Where everything costs between 1-100ep. Thus when you earn your 5ep per 2 hours, you will be able to afford the best monsters in the game. And when you don't have ep, you will buy more in support of our good friends, G Team. Everyone else should follow your example and thus the revival of DS can begin.


Last edited by Event Horizon on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by EdwardStarbuck on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:42 pm

Event, you need to relax.  Jeez.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Event Horizon on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:45 pm

I am relaxed. I'm just pointing out why this is one of the dumbest posts that I have ever read about the 'current DS economy.' ^^

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Maverick1986 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:13 pm

Umm. Nice attack. No, I wanted to spawn a conversation based on my observations. I, for one, am not hurting for EP. I don't demand overtrade. I don't overprice. But, to address your points..
1) No, AA drop rate shouldn't be 50% for paid DS. What I'm trying to imply is that for $120 the things I summoned are not worth anywhere near that value in EP. For the record, I didn't do these summons with intent to sell. Goal 1=AA sin prog (don't think I'll need it, but you never know) and 2=give several of my friends and idea of what they might get based on my drop rates. Let's face it, many of the game's players are younger. If even old enough to use a credit card (gift cards for youngest or parents acct), soul points are very expensive. Many people said use the SP for EP. But if everyone used SP for EP there'd be very few good cards for sale/trade.
2) I cede to your point. However, let me rephrase: it seems to many that there is a very apparent correlation between $ spent and perceived success. Whether this is due to more interested players spending more idk.
3) I don't disagree with this. This point has many many viewpoints and suggestions. I've had TERRIBLE customer service from G team. However, I like the game, and I don't have a problem spending money infrequently. But, participating in several DS chat rooms such as Kakao, Palringo, and KIK, there are many, many, many ppl that repeatedly adopt the "EFF G team" slogan. These same people have never once (per their admittance) spent a penny, but they expect that their 3 free DS to be on par with someone who has done over 2000 paid ones (I know a few ppl who have done that many). These same people often demand "overpay", uneven trades as their attempt to get ahead. Granted, I DO understand overpay. You're spending extra time to sell things you didn't necessarily want in the first place so the overtrade justifies your time expenditure. Ok. But, rates are often ridiculous, fair trades are often not accepted even when the pot is literally sweetened with pots for their efforts. Many new players and traders end up frustrated and quit. I believe your also neglecting that there are 7 mil ppl playing (yes, tons of alts), so there are also tons of free DS's providing AAs and AAAs. Most ppl i know with AAAs got from free dSAnd for the record, I'm not naive enough to believe that not a single person spends. DS wouldn't be so highly ranked in monthly gross if ppl didn't. Just repeating what I've heard from tons of players lately.
4) That is not me profiteering. That's me trying to be fair. How long does it take to burn 30 EP? A few hours tops. I did it in 1.5 hours. If 11 EP is 1000 SP, and 1300 SP is 11.99, why should I ask someone to pay me about federal minimum wage to play a game I like because they missed rank by a few spots? For example, divine fists.. If someone really wants him and has a trade equal in BP, skill usefulness, then why not straight trade?
Conclusion:
I don't want prices to crash further. I'd like people to enjoy game without doing so by asking huge overpay on the few pots that many have left in this game as payment for being higher level or playing an event longer. Yes, a slight overpay can be fair, but slight is the exception and not the rule. Lastly, you're assuming that I'm making 5 EP per hour every hour I did event. That is blatantly incorrect. It would be 5 EP for total time invested.
Conclusion 2: I welcome more thoughts (or attacks). Maybe discussion will lead to valuable insight. Or who knows, maybe even a suggestion ATeam could implement that would not only benefit them but us the players as well.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Event Horizon on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:30 pm

Then it seems your real problem is with how much it costs to buy ep from G Team.

Trades are accepted by some depending on their needs. But ep is the currency in the game and for good reason. That is why everyone wants ep. I think you understand the importance of having currency?
Real world example: Would you accept a prize winning horse (worth $40,000)  in exchange for your car (also worth $40,000)? The correct answer would be No (unless you are a horse racing enthusiast and own a farm). You have no use for a horse and trading one thing that you will also need to sell for another will not help you in most cases. Maybe you can trade that horse for a boat (that you want) of the same value or maybe you can't. Better to accept $40,000.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Maverick1986 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:41 pm

I don't necessarily have a problem. Cheaper soul points, better buying packages? Great. That'd help new players, young players, and vet players. If I had a problem spending 15k SP, I simply wouldn't have done so. But saving money and getting same summons for less while attracting new players and reinvigorating long time players? That could be win-win.

Your point as to horses, boats and cars is well taken. But there are several people that play game just for EP profit. No events, mediocre teams.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Maverick1986 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:49 pm

Accidentally submitted without finishing. We have to remember that this is a game though and not a car, boat, or horse. Yes, people want EP to keep playing. Some just want to have 25k EP saved up. This is a game based on making a team of monsters and battling others and progressing through missions and events. I find it hard to believe that so few people want to trade 1 thing for another and so many demand EP only. It seems fairly obvious that the market doesn't have that much EP for the casual player right now. So sellers lower their prices or undercut other sellers, leading to a downward spiral to attempt maximizing profit and minimizing loss. New player - "Hey, that Baulris looks pretty cool. Wanna trade me for my Bazz?" Seller: EP only. 400 (aka ~323$). New players: no one wants my bazz and I can't finish form. I'll sell cheap at 150. Seller: I'll buy for 110. *sells* seller: selling Bazz at 400 and baulris at 400

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Maverick1986 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:53 pm

By the way, I'm interested as to what y'all think about why market is bad and how it can (or can't) be fixed. Another theory I hear often is "prepping for AAA trades and sales" having 3 max reg AAAs and a max AAA+ myself, I'm not selling - just trading. I'm not sure I buy this theory

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by zzz1998 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:21 pm

I don't believe the market is good or bad.  This is just like any other market that's base on supply and demand.  When a game like this reach a certain point the mudflation kick in.  The Ateam is not doing anything different then what other developers have done.  They created the game to make money, so they will try to make the most out of it.    This is not a Mario Brothers game where there is a defined end game scenario.   Something like DS, people will stop playing the game due to various reasons, but that is no real end game until Ateam decided to pull the plug of their servers.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by FrankF on Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:25 pm

A couple points:

1) Summon rate sucks a lot more than you think.  I've done hundreds of free DS and never gotten an AA.  I've done 84 paid DS and only gotten 1 AA.
2) Paying is not required to succeed.  It doesn't really even help that much, unless you pay a lot (more than I have, e.g.).
3) This is true, and is a real problem.  Many people think that not paying is a badge of honor.  Others refuse to "pay for pixels".  Either way, if no one paid, this game would be crap.

However, I think you missed the biggest problem with the game, which is that new players start waaaay behind.  I've been playing for almost 6 months and I'm just now starting to think about ranking (level 90).  Even then, I only have ~400 energy, so I'll have to spend a lot more EP than others.  And people starting at low level now are even further behind me.  So this is a challenge for ATeam: keep the current high-level players and also bring in new players and keep them interested long enough for them to become paying customers.  I hope they find a solution to this, because I don't think they've really tried so far.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by bacsiha on Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:12 am

Paying to succeed?
I havent feed ATEAM a single penny, I even have stolen from them lol.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by zzz1998 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:18 am

FrankF wrote:A couple points:
However, I think you missed the biggest problem with the game, which is that new players start waaaay behind.  I've been playing for almost 6 months and I'm just now starting to think about ranking (level 90).  Even then, I only have ~400 energy, so I'll have to spend a lot more EP than others.  And people starting at low level now are even further behind me.  So this is a challenge for ATeam: keep the current high-level players and also bring in new players and keep them interested long enough for them to become paying customers.  I hope they find a solution to this, because I don't think they've really tried so far.

I agreed. They should do more event like forgotten island 1/2 where players level do not give advantage. By the way, I said 'like it' not exact same thing. I don't think forgotten island 2 was not that good. forgotten island 1 was much better.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by sel on Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:18 am

Erm...have you not seen the changes that they are going to make? This are the changes that already starting the flow and effect to most of those high level players. Alot of them already starting to whine and quit. However, I hardly hear any whining from low level players. SOOooo...I already see where this Ateam intend to hurt. Not the low level players...but more on the high level players. Thats why they quit..lol. So this actually is a good thing for new comers.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by larry378 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:41 pm

sel wrote: However, I hardly hear any whining from low level players.

"low level players" aren't on this forum whining.

because

"low level players" aren't on this forum period.

people download and start playing games on their phones. Most of these games they get bored of and stop playing after a while. People who are going to continue playing will look for more information online, on forums etc...

The only people complaining are people who have invested time.

If you've been living in a nice neighborhood for years and hobos and crackheads start to infest it; you'll have a problem with that

If you're looking to buy a house and pass by a neighborhood you've never seen before in your life filled with hobos and crackheads; you'll simply look elsewhere

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by JSOG on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:17 pm

I just want to mention that AA summon rates are low but not as bad as some think.
As example here's a few results from free D's;
Ash bahamut
Grizel
Raminas
Vladx3
Drux3
Adanx3
Inshipit
Gold gorgerx2

I actually did better with free ds than I did with paid.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Tryptich on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:34 pm

I understand that they can't make AA's easy to get, if they were so simple to get than the game would be much more boring.  Still I've been playing since late September and I summoned my first AA from an ally point summon last week.  All other AA's I have are from events that I've invested time in or trades that I've been able to make.  

The problem I have is not with the appearance rate of AA's, those should be rare or earned.  My problem is with the low level monsters that come from Dark Summons. In forgotten Island 2 I ranked #502, 1 win away from the 43 BP AA.  My consolation prize was 5 dark summons.  Where I landed 5 A monsters, with 4 of them under 15 BP.  This included a Blood Blob, a Fafnir, a Demon Bait Insect.  Now if I landed 20+ BP monsters even if they are only A's I would be bummed, but at least it's not a 10 BP crap monster.  The low level monsters available in Dark Summons are so common it makes it impossible to use them, and really hard to justify buying them.  I believe if they are changing the "economy" of the game, than they also need to have the summons change as well.  It's not a major change they would need to make to make it work, but at least a floor for the dark summons would be nice.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by echoside on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:01 pm

Imagine how upset some of you would be if dark summons still had B monsters
And  JSOG you are an exception, I have done over 500 free dark summons and exactly 189 paid dark summons, zero AAAs, and I can count the AAs on one hand...well I could if I had 7 fingers on one hand

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Magickiller on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:30 pm

Oh the good old days when B's were summoned from Dark Summons and Beelzebub was a new rare monster able to be obtained from a dark summon.... At that time I actually did debate whether or not to spend money... but hey, looks like I didn't need to since I can get it now by just asking for it for free.

The game is ever evolving with new "better" monsters coming out all the time. What may be a great form today, may not be such a good one tomorrow, but I sure can afford that "used-to-be great" form for almost nothing now, because new better monsters have come out today.

Overall certain people WILL spend money on this game, and others will not. Now whether or not those people who don't spend money have a good form is all in how the computers decide their luck.

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by Ologolos on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:26 am

I'm just curious to hear an example of another game where it or its "economy" didn't suffer as a result of time and changing interests?

I'm not asking to be a smart ass; I'm asking because I don't know... I haven't played many online games like this. 

World of Warcraft? Something else?

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Re: Current DS Economy

Post by perndog on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:03 pm

I have never spent a penny on this game and will never spend the kind of money it takes to summon anything I checked the price and its like 30$ to do a 11x summon that is ridiculous in my opinion (I can buy 2 months of world of warcraft for that).  In the beginning of this game It was hard as hell trying to level up my character and even compete a little bit since the bigger guys keep you flat to the foor.   After this week i have over 1k ep from flipping trades and competing in and ranking every event.  This game lost a lot of luster from the loss of trade, but I as a free player will find a niche that fits me and exploit so i can continue to gain ep.  Its like world of warcraft but without add ons and a better auction house I have millions in gold which I have had for years because I learn how to make gold/ep in any game because its fun making stuff that people spend stupid amounts of money trying to accomplish.

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