Help with my AA+ wyrm team

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Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by Tacita on Sat May 11, 2013 11:52 am

Hey
My team currently consists of these: Ash Bahamut, Banished Dragon, Moon Sea Dragon, Omni Dragon Kanne and Dragon of Venus.
They all have original skill, except Kanna, he has DEA.
I´m wondering what the next step for my team should be, I´m currently considering getting a Venus with IPD or a Raminas.
What do you guys suggest?

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Re: Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by larry378 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:52 pm

raminas > ipd venus


btw, pure sin wyrms aren't very good since they require kanna and venus who are both pretty weak.


that being said, you will be wanting to eventually phase kanna out of your formation since he doesn't do much damage and goes down relatively quickly compared to the others.

I personally have

raminas/banished/moonC(DEA)/Gorger(PAP)/Kanna

and am going to swap kanna for an ash eventually, although I'm also trying to random soul gorger until he gets health up...

The thing is; unless you want to have a form with venus and kanna; you're going to have to drop the guild combo and grab some stronger wyrms from other guilds; namely raminas. At that point; there isn't much reason to keep the second weak link; and you can go ahead and replace that with some stronger wyrm without worrying about guild restrictions


i.e. the 4 "core" members of your wyrm team are skillbearers with ipd/dea/ded/ipa or... raminas/Skillchanged Wyrm (reccomend MoonC)/banish/ash (why moonC? because he's the next best available sin wyrm before the 20/16bp ones, so even if you don't get guild combo, you still get a slight bonus for using him)..

You don't necessarily have to have moonC with dea, but you don't want to have kanna/venus on your team in general

in other words it boils down to... optimal sin skewed hybrid wyrm form:

lead: Ash (has ipa essential skill)
Raminas (has ipd essential skill)
Banished (has ded essential skill)
MoonC (skillchanged to dea essential skill or other)
5th Member (skillchanged to dea essential skill or other)

between MoonC and 5th member, you can give either one DEA; and if you really want; you can have kanna be your 5th member, but I wouldn't reccomend that. ideas for 5th member; ggd, wingarm, frozen silver, full moon (don't skillchange him lol), etc.

e.g. I went the DEA moonC route, so I'm fiddling with random skill changes on my Gorger hopefully to get hpup eventually, then I can put in ash for Ash/Raminas/Banish/MoonC(dea)/Gorger(hpup)

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Re: Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by Tacita on Sat May 11, 2013 1:46 pm

Thanks for your reply ^^

I know I have to switch Kanna if I go the hybrid route with Raminas, but that would be more expensive because of the skill change, so I started asking this ^^


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Re: Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by larry378 on Sat May 11, 2013 2:14 pm

Tacita wrote:Thanks for your reply ^^

I know I have to switch Kanna if I go the hybrid route with Raminas, but that would be more expensive because of the skill change, so I started asking this ^^


I hear ya. I actually had a DEA Kanna at one point as well; back when I was going AA/A hybrid wyrms (Kanna/venus/neptune/MLD/Lind), and I eventually accidentally sacced that kanna into a berith in a hilarious sacrifice order mix-up (sacced the target into the stack... not the first time it happened, but certainly the worst case of that in my personal experience).

However, I would certainly say that it is WORTH IT to place skill-changes only on stronger monsters.

But long term; it is definitely worth it to make the switch; and now skill spirits are relatively cheap, so I don't find it hard to imagine that you should be able to find a dea soul for less than a 100ep without too much trouble.


5th member is an interesting topic though.


As said earlier; the optimal 4-skill spread with best possible stats and guild-inclusive where possible for the foundation of a sin-heavy wyrm team is

Ash/Raminas/Banish/MoonC(DEA or HPUP[via lots and lots of random skills]

Which leaves you with some flexibility for #4. Full Moon is the obvious first pick; psycho down is the best guild down a sin player can have on their formation because if you're like me; the vast majority of people you will be fighting are psycho guild.

Which leads to the "optimal" sin-heavy wyrm form of

Ash/Full Moon/Raminas/Banish/MoonC(HealthUp)
[pricey due to the large amount of random skill souls you will likely need to get health up, or outright purchasing one of the remaining health up skillchanged spirits from before they disabled the ability to make them {the sacrifice enhance/evolve no spirit change}; and full moon isn't exactly cheap either]

Or more affordable options such as

Ash/Raminas/Banish/MoonC(DEA)/{Frozen Silver[random] or Scales[random]}

or the el-cheapo option (which I am personally pursuing) of

Ash/Raminas/Banish/MoonC(DEA)/{GGD[random] or Wingarm[random]}


All in all; being a relatively low def/hp formation, sin wyrms and sin-heavy hybrid wyrms are not a very "good" formation if you want to battle competitively. They require an extreme investment in spirits particularly on account of lacking health up, and dea(forgivable since dea is cheap), and requiring "fixed" non-guild members (aka full moon) for optimal build.

Basically; to get the most out of your wyrms you're going to have to spend an amount of ep which could get you a better more balanced formation altogether.

Don't get me wrong; I really enjoy my formation, and have no intention of stopping using wyrms. but it is important to recognize that pure sin wyrms are not a good formation, and sin-heavy hybrid wyrms can exceed pure sin wyrms in effectiveness, but even with extreme investment will only begin to come close to "established" formations in terms of functionality (particularly defense; sure wingwyrms are insane attackers, but they are seriously weak when it comes to defense due to the low def/hp situation which can be mitigated to some degree with dea/ipd, but will be negated by any decent team which is running all 4 major skills at (20) or imp down)

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Re: Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by Tacita on Sat May 11, 2013 3:14 pm

As you say, wyrms are mostly attack oriented, but that just means I have to build a formartion for defense afterwards Wink
You may say that it will be very expensive to build two fully functional teams, for use at the same time, but I see it as giving me a purpose in the game after I'm finished with the wyrms ^^
Also, if I keep the wyrm team as an attack team only, I won't really need HPU as much and can keep psycho down on Full Moon Very Happy

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Re: Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by larry378 on Sat May 11, 2013 3:27 pm

Tacita wrote:As you say, wyrms are mostly attack oriented, but that just means I have to build a formartion for defense afterwards Wink
You may say that it will be very expensive to build two fully functional teams, for use at the same time, but I see it as giving me a purpose in the game after I'm finished with the wyrms ^^
Also, if I keep the wyrm team as an attack team only, I won't really need HPU as much and can keep psycho down on Full Moon Very Happy

I hear ya Smile

Personally I'm going to keep working on fine tuning my wyrms as much as I can... the fact of the matter is that I really don't like any of the other potential "good" sin formations primarily on account of the available health up monsters which are either undead, brute, mystic or creation; of which only undead and brute are really viable as full formations; neither of which I find particularly aesthetically appealing; also either of those require too many skill changes; while wyrms only need 2 skillchanges at most.

I guess wyrms are the best looking reasonably functional formation for me lol.

Haven't really ran the numbers; but have been considering maybe playing with a guild/nospecies combo with
ash, banish, moonc(dea), bide, finis

which for all intents and purposes may be cheaper than god knows how many random souls I'll need to get ggd health up; bide and finis being reasonably affordable (compared to crazy stuff like full moon/nagi/amiyla and co.); but I'm still leaning on my wyrms for the moment; partially in the vain hope that they will eventually release more (iirc ash is the newest sin wyrm to date... which is pretty old), or a any guild winged health up wyrm (which with my luck will be a 40+bp released a week or so after I spend hundreds or thousands of ep on random spirits and finally get health up on my gorger lol)

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Re: Help with my AA+ wyrm team

Post by Tacita on Sat May 11, 2013 6:28 pm

I will fine tune my wyrm team some more too, though I'm still considering if I want to go the super expensive, fully attack oriented way. If I remember right there are 5-6 wyrms with 15000+ attack, so getting those and skillchangeing them would be the final, but that is probably incredibly expensive, but I think it would be an awesome team to have.

I must I agree with you when it comes to getting a new sin wyrm, the other guilds have quite a few, only sin have only 5.
Also, I find wyrms the most aesthetically appealing too.

EDIT:
I looked into it, and there are 5 wyrms with 15000 atk, but unfortunately 2 of them aren´t winged :/
And Psycho only got 5 wyrms too, it´s Covert that has a lot of wyrms, they got 11.

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