What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

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What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by clutchjunkie on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:40 am

I got to thinking today, if someone built a (hypothetical) team with all three guild downs maxed, that would leave 2 open spots for other skills. I am thinking on the AA+ level here, and I don't know the AA's well enough to know if this is even possible without skill change spirits.

I am thinking the other two skills would be IPA and AGI, as this would really take advantage of the -45% and possibly making most of the AA+'s in the game one-shottable. Yes, I know this means a hybrid A+/AA+ team for the agi, but covert wyrms, psycho brutes, and sin demons could still get +40% worth of attack.

Of course, 5xAA+ would probably be necessary to get all three guild downs and some decent combo bonus, but wouldn't that still technically be better than the "big four" considering you would have two open skill slots still?

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by ryesteve on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:04 am

A guild down that matches yours seems like a waste. It would come into play so rarely, it's like wasting a slot. And you will not be one-shotting AA+ teams, presuming they have any ipd/dea/health up/guild down in play. And killing the combos would kill your stats, like you said. If I faced a team like this, where the only thing it would be using against me is a guild down and ipa, I would have no trouble beating this team.

See "guild down question" in tactics for a discussion about using two guild downs at once.

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by Slinger1 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:31 pm

monster with guild down that matches their guild = useful for someone who uses formation from different guild (for example: rancor summoner with sin demon for his/her main formation).

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by ryesteve on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:23 pm

No, it doesn't matter what your formation is; you're still unlikely to battle monsters that match your guild. I think you're confusing this with using a guild down that matches the monster's guild, not your guild. As a psycho player, galatea with psycho down wouldn't make sense for me, but it'd be good for a sin or covert player going with a cross guild team.

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by clutchjunkie on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:57 am

I just had a facepalm moment. When I started this thread, I assumed that guild downs worked the same as species downs in that Imp down (20) would reduce your opponents Impulse monster stats by 45%. I always wondered why people weren't abusing these when they were so powerful, turns out it's because they aren't.
So, yeah, IPA/DEA/DED/IPD/Health is pretty much the trump card then, although I have always wondered how agi(20) + 4x AA+ lightning(20) would do...

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by qpwoalsk on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:29 am

Actually for AA+ teams, what is better?

ded, dea, ipa, ipd, hp up

or

hp up, 2 guild downs, ipa, and dea.

Basically the difference is losing 5% on the ded, but instead of an Ipd boost you get another 20% dea.

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by sel on Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:06 pm

it depends who u up against. If u hitting those within ur guild dwn (both monster) then u r good. If they are HITTING YOU and your guild dwn is not affecting them (if only one is affecting them, you are just wasted 1 slot skill monster)...then ded,dea,ipa,ipd,hp up wins.

Like I said..it depends who u hitting and defending against. IMO ded,dea,ipd,ipa,hp up is prefered as they are much a univeral skill no matter what conditions.

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by qpwoalsk on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:08 am

sel wrote:it depends who u up against. If u hitting those within ur guild dwn (both monster) then u r good. If they are HITTING YOU and your guild dwn is not affecting them (if only one is affecting them, you are just wasted 1 slot skill monster)...then ded,dea,ipa,ipd,hp up wins.

Like I said..it depends who u hitting and defending against. IMO ded,dea,ipd,ipa,hp up is prefered as they are much a univeral skill no matter what conditions.

No my point was that only one guild down hits each battle. That's just losing 5% off ded as opposed to DED skill, but gaining a 20% dea over 25% IPD. So I was asking the usefulness of IPD vs DEA since I recall people saying DEA does more to lower the damage done to you.

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by Hecatonchyr on Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:08 pm

The formula for damages is:
Atk x2 - def

The result cannot be superior to Atk.
Example if Atk is 15000 and def 13000:
15000x2-13000 = 17000, but since this result cannot be >15000, you will hit 15000.

Based on that, some teams have so high attack (covert wyrm winged AA+ combo x5 with IPA skill change is an example) that no matter your def and IPD, they will hit you a full 20-25k+ damages and one shot any member of your team if you don't have guild down AND DEA AND HP up to have a chance to survive. That's why DEA and guild down are miles ahead IPD, because it will decrease the atk, and therefore the damages no matter what, while IPD is good only if you have a combo x4 (species guild rarity level, for max def) and each of your monsters with 16k+ def, as well as at least DEA.

I tested most teams and settled with Klamut+ Ash+ Lilliath+ Mech+ Igniti+ (or Sara+), because guild down and DEA are the only things that make me win against some high atk teams, and because as I said, without high def, IPD is very, very useless. That's for sin, but for tyranny with high def, probably DEA and IPD are good, and guild down is icing on the cake. As for covert, which is high hp and low def, IPD is totally worthless, DEA and guild down are mandatory.

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by qpwoalsk on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:55 am

Hecatonchyr wrote:The formula for damages is:
Atk x2 - def

The result cannot be superior to Atk.
Example if Atk is 15000 and def 13000:
15000x2-13000 = 17000, but since this result cannot be >15000, you will hit 15000.

Based on that, some teams have so high attack (covert wyrm winged AA+ combo x5 with IPA skill change is an example) that no matter your def and IPD, they will hit you a full 20-25k+ damages and one shot any member of your team if you don't have guild down AND DEA AND HP up to have a chance to survive. That's why DEA and guild down are miles ahead IPD, because it will decrease the atk, and therefore the damages no matter what, while IPD is good only if you have a combo x4 (species guild rarity level, for max def) and each of your monsters with 16k+ def, as well as at least DEA.

I tested most teams and settled with Klamut+ Ash+ Lilliath+ Mech+ Igniti+ (or Sara+), because guild down and DEA are the only things that make me win against some high atk teams, and because as I said, without high def, IPD is very, very useless. That's for sin, but for tyranny with high def, probably DEA and IPD are good, and guild down is icing on the cake. As for covert, which is high hp and low def, IPD is totally worthless, DEA and guild down are mandatory.

Aesome post! That was the answer I was looking for, thanks!

By the way, where did you get the damage formula 2x att - def from?

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by Hecatonchyr on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:53 am

I battled 4000 times and figured out some things with friends Smile its pretty easy to calculate the final attack since you know all modifiers (combos, clan, guild, skills...), as the same for def. With battle log and the damages effectively done on each monster, I ended up with this formula, which accurately guess the damages (well, there is in fact a random part which makes the damages fluctuate from plus or minus 10% of the theoretical value).

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

Post by qpwoalsk on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:06 am

Hecatonchyr wrote:I battled 4000 times and figured out some things with friends Smile its pretty easy to calculate the final attack since you know all modifiers (combos, clan, guild, skills...), as the same for def. With battle log and the damages effectively done on each monster, I ended up with this formula, which accurately guess the damages (well, there is in fact a random part which makes the damages fluctuate from plus or minus 10% of the theoretical value).

cool

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Re: What would be better, ALL guild downs or IPD/DEA/DED/IPA

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