Sin Wyrms; next step?

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Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:58 pm

Current Form;
banished, omni kanna, venus, mld, lind (I swap lind for neptune when applicable vs agi non-users)

things are +m(20) where relevant; no skill changes or adds so venus/kanna are just +m(noskill)

what's my next move?

I'm thinking oh replacing mld with raminas; long term goal obviously what with how raminas is priced

I'm also aware of moonsea; but his skill sucks, and for a wyrm that you need a skill-change for he's too expensive in my opinion

then there's Ash... not much to say here. I'm not really interested in Ash. I know I want an IPD AA like raminas or dod eventually, but that'll already inflate my bp cost a fair bit beyond MLD; and then adding a third (first being banished, second being dod/raminas) high-bp AA is probably going to be too high bp cost for my taste.

finally; I am aware that I could just out and get a terra or demo and have a full AA winged wyrm team; but... I don't want to do that. I'd rather AA/A hybrid with skills than mostly unskilled AAs

I'm also considering as an option setting my next goal as a DEA soul; but I am very hesitant about that because there's always the chance that the next event will have a dea winged AA wyrm as reward or something and I'd feel pretty dumb about putting DEA on kanna or venus and having a better DEA wyrm come out shortly afterwards.

any and all advice and recommendations appreciated

thank you in advance Very Happy

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by Horg on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:52 pm

I'm also aware of moonsea; but his skill sucks, and for a wyrm that you need a skill-change for he's too expensive in my opinion

Moonsea has extremely good stats, he is also very cheap for a AA now, you can probably find a Moonsea+M for 180 EP, less if you try hard enough. While critical is not the best skill in the game, it's still good, I would not consider Moonsea as a monster who "needs a skill-change".

too high bp cost for my taste

Then take a step back to A+ and the little leagues, if you want a competitive team that doesn't just look pretty then expect to have a 150+ BP team.

I'm also considering as an option setting my next goal as a DEA soul...having a better DEA wyrm come out shortly afterwards.

If that's how you think then stop considering it at all, no reason to stress yourself over something you'll end up regretting regardless.

no skill changes or adds so venus/kanna are just +m(noskill)

As much as these guys have better than A stats, the no skill makes them a handicap on a team, you should limit to only using 1 at any time, I'd suggest picking up a Fire and Ice Dragon (IPA) to replace the 16 BP ones.

Overall

I'd just work towards a full AA+ mixed guild Wyrm team, which is getting a lot easier with so many being released.
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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:10 pm

well, the thing about the DEA wyrm is that it seems long overdue; so I feel that one might be coming out soon; as I'm sure the devs recognize that "hole" in AAs which has yet to be filled.

But then again; this same statement applies for one month ago, two months ago, etc... DEA wyrm is it ever going to happen? who knows.



The thing about bp cost mostly relates to my level. I'm like level 90-something, so I don't really have as many allies, and level up skillpoints as higher level people. I'm all for having higher bp teams in the future when I have the energy/bp infrastructure to support it, but I'd like to not inflate that too much right now because I DO need to get a fair amount of battles out to stay on the rankings. In the future; sure. But I'm trying to keep it lower at the moment.




So I take it you would condone switching venus for moonsea?

in regards to mld; would dod or raminas be the better way to go? (obviously raminas is stronger; but I'm asking in terms of cost: return, is raminas' superiority to dod analogous to their relative price?)

I get what you're saying about fire&ice, but I think if I wanted to add a skill to my form I would go for mesh.

to eventually have something like...

Banished, Raminas/dod, Moonsea, Kanna, Mesh?

DED/IPD/DEA

presumably the dod/raminas would be prioritized over moonsea as next acquisition, and I would swap mesh for lind once I had acquired a dod or raminas before swapping venus for moonsea

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by Horg on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:47 pm

I'm not sure why you are so in love with DEA, you can definitely live without it. Making a good team is all about balance, you have to gain the best skill-set you can while still maintaining team-combos.

Banished, Raminas/dod, Moonsea, Kanna, Mesh?

In this case you would get much more benefit from tossing your Venus in there and picking up the Rarity/Level bonus over DEA.

Another option you can look into is...

Replacing Lindwurm with Moonsea, pickup Guild Bonus
Replace magic Light with ash Bahumut, gain Rarity/Level

Giving you...
Ash, Banished, Monsea, Venus, Kanna - 5 Combo with IPA/DeD

ATK 124631 DEF 78318
HP 84216 BP 143

Then you can either skill change your venus/kanna or wait for new sin winged wyrms.

Or you can go all out and do...

Moonsea, Raminas, Banished, Ash, Wingarm (DEA)

ATK 144198 DEF 108755
HP 91839 BP 181
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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by Horg on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:52 pm

As another note, people (except punt) don't actually use their team to raise up in the battle ranks, all you do is use 1 low BP monster and go hunting for others who have quit or are doing the same thing. The battle system in this game is a joke and a half. If you want to compete, your main team is only for defensive purposes and to look cool.
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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:12 pm

That's a good point about replacing lind with moonsea to pick up rarity

I forgot about how lind was the only non-impulse on my team.

About the DEA: yeah, I guess I've been a little obsessed with DEA since the basic sin A wyrms had dea/ipd as the integral skills I've been trying to make sure that I have both of those skills for a sin AA wyrm team.

I suppose the effect of DEA is somewhat less pronounced against AAs due to the stats tending towards defense as opposed to As where DEA affected the most heavily weighted stat.

At the moment I think replacing venus with moonsea will be my next step. Also the good thing about moonsea is that he's a better platform for skillchange in the future than venus or kanna.

so my formation would look like...

Banished
MoonC
Kanna
MLD
Lind(defensive&multi-purpose) OR Venus(offensive vs agi-less enemies, confers guild combo)

and I don't mind having a non-full AA team. I actually just use my kanna as leader since kanna is cheap and has OK health/defense and that makes people think my formation sucks or something so I get a fair amount of gold from defensive wins from misc A teams who probably see me in the random battle refresh and hit autoresolve because they think they'll win. once I get the new team I can set mld or lind as leader to bait even more attacks. I guess form might be better with better leaders but I highly doubt switching leaders is going to help against the good 5xAA teams that farm everyone on rank.

yeah the battle system is flawed. but it's something which I find a bit more fun than the events. I'm not high enough on the rankings to where you have to do that as many 1bp/hp battles as possible. I still have a handful of people I can attack for 25hp since I'm only overall ranked 80ish

what are your thoughts on dod/raminas?
I think that ipd is probably the second most important skill for AA, and the most important available skill for wyrms since there is no health up wyrm.

I know they're both steeply priced, but I would consider having one of them as crucial for AA wyrms in the long run.

basically I want to know if raminas' relative price to dod is justifiable.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by kyan on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:47 am

DEA on AA teams without accompanying guild down or ipd is more or less useless. It won't get you much and DEA spirit are so rare these days they are going for 400-500 mostly because of the high end winged wyrm team or 40bp winged teams lacking a DEA monsters.

As for DEA wyrm. I seriously doubt that will be release anytime soon. Ateam is releasing AA skills on a fairly predictable cycle so DEA is not coming up again for awhile since we just have one. As for having a hole. Wyrms getting a pass on species down is a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger hole in the game.

As for skill change, you should know that skill changed monsters never recover their cost. The spirits are about the only thing in game that gains value over time whereas monsters drop value fast. With the pace of AA being release, a skill change monster become obsolete very fast. The skill change might fit your current form perfectly but it will be unlikely to fit other peoples so you'll have a hard time finding buyer for it.

As for DoD/Raminas both are powerful but expensive. DoD+m20 400-500. Raminas 500-600. Raminas is summonable so its price will continue to drop and probably drag DoD with it.

Frankly it you're going to spend on Raminas, I would opt for Ash. It will last you much longer and get you useful bonuses. I don't understand your hate on Ash at all other than the price point. Its amazing stat and would get you rarity and guild bonus and the perfect skill for offensive oriented winged wyrm team.

If you're thinking defensive AA+ team than winged wyrm is not the way to go. They are offensive teams but lacks defensive capabilities. Namely guild down. That is why vanity is so ridiculously overprice. It gives winged wyrm defensive capability against impulse team but still requires an investment into DEA spirit which has driven DEA spirits price up by several hundreds in a few months. Even the very high end wyrm team with Ash/Banish/Raminas/Wingarm and Vanity are easily beaten by decent AA+ teams but they win against just about every team on offense due to the high attacking capability from winged, ded and Ash which is why Ash is so expensive. Not only do almost all impulse team want it but the winged wyrm teams too.

The defensive AA+ team have dea/guild down/health/ipd. Ideally both guild down though hard to fit both in.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by qpwoalsk on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:13 am

kyan wrote:DEA on AA teams without accompanying guild down or ipd is more or less useless. It won't get you much and DEA spirit are so rare these days they are going for 400-500 mostly because of the high end winged wyrm team or 40bp winged teams lacking a DEA monsters.

As for DEA wyrm. I seriously doubt that will be release anytime soon. Ateam is releasing AA skills on a fairly predictable cycle so DEA is not coming up again for awhile since we just have one. As for having a hole. Wyrms getting a pass on species down is a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger hole in the game.

As for skill change, you should know that skill changed monsters never recover their cost. The spirits are about the only thing in game that gains value over time whereas monsters drop value fast. With the pace of AA being release, a skill change monster become obsolete very fast. The skill change might fit your current form perfectly but it will be unlikely to fit other peoples so you'll have a hard time finding buyer for it.

As for DoD/Raminas both are powerful but expensive. DoD+m20 400-500. Raminas 500-600. Raminas is summonable so its price will continue to drop and probably drag DoD with it.

Frankly it you're going to spend on Raminas, I would opt for Ash. It will last you much longer and get you useful bonuses. I don't understand your hate on Ash at all other than the price point. Its amazing stat and would get you rarity and guild bonus and the perfect skill for offensive oriented winged wyrm team.

If you're thinking defensive AA+ team than winged wyrm is not the way to go. They are offensive teams but lacks defensive capabilities. Namely guild down. That is why vanity is so ridiculously overprice. It gives winged wyrm defensive capability against impulse team but still requires an investment into DEA spirit which has driven DEA spirits price up by several hundreds in a few months. Even the very high end wyrm team with Ash/Banish/Raminas/Wingarm and Vanity are easily beaten by decent AA+ teams but they win against just about every team on offense due to the high attacking capability from winged, ded and Ash which is why Ash is so expensive. Not only do almost all impulse team want it but the winged wyrm teams too.

The defensive AA+ team have dea/guild down/health/ipd. Ideally both guild down though hard to fit both in.

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Would dea still be useless if you have hp up in your team but no IPD?

And also is it true moon+m is only 180 now? I havn't seen that anywhere yet.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by Horg on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:18 am

Would dea still be useless if you have hp up in your team but no IPD?

And also is it true moon+m is only 180 now? I havn't seen that anywhere yet.

You won't find it advertised, but you can definitely find it for that cheap.

what are your thoughts on dod/raminas?

I definitely like DoD more, he has killer stats for relatively low BP cost, but Raminas just blows DoD out of the water in the stat department.

I agree with Kyan, Winged Wyrm AA+ team is absolutely an offensive formation, so DeD/IPA (Banished/Ash) are your most valuable skills by a long shot. DEA isn't necessarily useless but it does lose a lot of value in the AA+ End-Game.

I think your best bet is to work towards a Moonsea/Ash to fill out the 5 combo AA+ winged wyrm team...

ATK 147599 DEF 92854
HP 89357 BP 143

And then picking up Raminas/Vanity to move to mixed guild 4 combo.

ATK 147096 DEF 116999
HP 97556 BP 187

As you can see, the stat difference is negligible for the cost, I'd even be tempted to stick with that 5 combo AA+ team.

As a comparison, here is your current team stats (Banished Lead, MLD, Lind, Kanna, Venus)

ATK 68656 DEF 72452
HP 68988 BP 114

Kyan is also correct about the skill change, you won't ever get your EP back from the spirit by putting it on the monster; if you skill change moonsea, you can still expect to get around the same price as a regular moonsea.
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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:00 pm

Thank you for the feedback!

kyan wrote:DEA on AA teams without accompanying guild down or ipd is more or less useless. It won't get you much and DEA spirit are so rare these days they are going for 400-500 mostly because of the high end winged wyrm team or 40bp winged teams lacking a DEA monsters.

As for DEA wyrm. I seriously doubt that will be release anytime soon. Ateam is releasing AA skills on a fairly predictable cycle so DEA is not coming up again for awhile since we just have one. As for having a hole. Wyrms getting a pass on species down is a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger hole in the game.
That's unfortunate to hear about the release cycle, but I appreciate the heads up! However; wouldn't you consider the crawler down gap a larger hole? crawlers have health up, and iirc crawler AA team is considered to be the top AA form at the moment. The only advantage wyrms have is the abundance of winged ones, and I think that's less significant than health up.

I guess I have been a little too preoccupied with DEA. I had a DEA omni kanna at one point when DEA souls were ~60; I sacced it accidentally while I was stacking skills and I've been trying to recover one ever since; but yeah I noticed the huge growth of the DEA soul price and have been pretty disappointed with the past few soul distribution events not giving out DEA at all or in significant quantities to affect the price.

After thinking about it; I suppose DEA is rather low priority for my team. It's something I might want to eventually add as a finishing touch, but my initial prioritization of DEA is more linked to how the Sin A wyrm team works where dea/ipd were the integral aspects of the team; which makes more sense for A monsters since attack is the primary stat.

I realize now that my team can essentially beat any A-team as is (presuming high bp covert beasts(including gusion+m(20) config) and psy demons (including vic config) are the most powerful A teams that I would fight as a sin player) since there are a couple of people with those formations whom I farm on a daily basis altogether skipping watching the battle now. And I'm fairly sure that adding dea won't really give my team a better chance against the good 5AA forms that farm ME on a daily basis.

kyan wrote:
As for skill change, you should know that skill changed monsters never recover their cost. The spirits are about the only thing in game that gains value over time whereas monsters drop value fast. With the pace of AA being release, a skill change monster become obsolete very fast. The skill change might fit your current form perfectly but it will be unlikely to fit other peoples so you'll have a hard time finding buyer for it.

True! However I failed to clarify what I meant by value retention. Aside from market value, I was considering personal use value. e.g. I have seen DEA banished dragon+s while I was looking to buy my regular one, however I wouldn't go for that because I would eventually want DED on the team, and banished is the only natural imp DED AA, and I'm sure having 2 banisheds on a team (one reg one DEA) would mess up the combos, so I wouldn't go with that because of that long-term liability. Similarly I would rather add dea (eventually as mentioned above) to a moonsea who I would be fine with having on finalized formation rather than venus or kanna who are comparatively weak AA monsters which are used as cheap fillers which retain species/wings/rarity/guild.

kyan wrote:
As for DoD/Raminas both are powerful but expensive. DoD+m20 400-500. Raminas 500-600. Raminas is summonable so its price will continue to drop and probably drag DoD with it.

Frankly it you're going to spend on Raminas, I would opt for Ash. It will last you much longer and get you useful bonuses. I don't understand your hate on Ash at all other than the price point. Its amazing stat and would get you rarity and guild bonus and the perfect skill for offensive oriented winged wyrm team.

Ash is great an all, but I think that his price is unreasonable. I suppose an Ash would make a nice finishing touch for a sin wyrm team, but raminas/dod seems like a far more urgent acquisition to replace mld with an ipd AA.


kyan wrote:
If you're thinking defensive AA+ team than winged wyrm is not the way to go. They are offensive teams but lacks defensive capabilities. Namely guild down. That is why vanity is so ridiculously overprice. It gives winged wyrm defensive capability against impulse team but still requires an investment into DEA spirit which has driven DEA spirits price up by several hundreds in a few months. Even the very high end wyrm team with Ash/Banish/Raminas/Wingarm and Vanity are easily beaten by decent AA+ teams but they win against just about every team on offense due to the high attacking capability from winged, ded and Ash which is why Ash is so expensive. Not only do almost all impulse team want it but the winged wyrm teams too.

I understand that the formation path I'm on isn't optimal, but I like the wyrms. I'm not so much looking at this thread as the outline of a path to an endgame team; more of tweaks and improvements for a AA/A hybrid formation.

I'm looking at this as a "T1.5" formation

in the schema where
T0.5=functional A formations (sin winged demons, covert crawlers, psy brutes [elf commander, gigas etc...])
T1=good A formations (sin demons, psy demons, cov wyrms/beasts)
T1.5=AA/A forms
T2=functional 5AA formations
T2.5=150+bp optimal 5AA formations
Kind of described in this link
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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:00 pm

Thank you for the feedback!

Horg wrote:
I definitely like DoD more, he has killer stats for relatively low BP cost, but Raminas just blows DoD out of the water in the stat department.

I agree with Kyan, Winged Wyrm AA+ team is absolutely an offensive formation, so DeD/IPA (Banished/Ash) are your most valuable skills by a long shot. DEA isn't necessarily useless but it does lose a lot of value in the AA+ End-Game.

I think your best bet is to work towards a Moonsea/Ash to fill out the 5 combo AA+ winged wyrm team...

ATK 147599 DEF 92854
HP 89357 BP 143

And then picking up Raminas/Vanity to move to mixed guild 4 combo.

ATK 147096 DEF 116999
HP 97556 BP 187

As you can see, the stat difference is negligible for the cost, I'd even be tempted to stick with that 5 combo AA+ team.

As a comparison, here is your current team stats (Banished Lead, MLD, Lind, Kanna, Venus)

ATK 68656 DEF 72452
HP 68988 BP 114

Kyan is also correct about the skill change, you won't ever get your EP back from the spirit by putting it on the monster; if you skill change moonsea, you can still expect to get around the same price as a regular moonsea.

With that first step you described about getting moonc and ash and going for 5AA (I'm assuming you mean Ash, Banished, MoonC, Kanna, Venus) would not having ipd until I get a raminas or dod be a major liability? I haven't ran the numbers, but I thought IPD was basically the most important skill on my formation at the moment.

I was thinking more about swapping kanna and venus for better wyrms until I can replace mld
like: Banished, Kanna (replace with Ash), Venus (replace with MoonC), MLD, Lind
and for that the MoonC would be the first goal until I can save up for an Ash


But I DO like the end result of the changes you're suggesting with
lead: Ash
Raminas, Banished, MoonC, Vanity (probably skill changed)

I'm just a bit unsure about the order you're suggesting since I don't want to lose IPD.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by KrystaK on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:20 pm

Larry let me tell you about AA's there is never a perfect set up as of skills. All forms lack certain skills and unless you mod another monster you will never have an "ideal" setup.

Also with modding vanity right there would murder any value the monster has. You would be better off from a price point modding a wingarm or ggd. You would loose a touch of damage and health but the price between a wingarm and vanity is huge and you wouldn't loose ep if you end up having to sell the vanity later. With how popular the wyrms are a dea/ipd wingarm would actually have a higher value then a ded wingarm.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:24 pm

KrystaK wrote:Larry let me tell you about AA's there is never a perfect set up as of skills. All forms lack certain skills and unless you mod another monster you will never have an "ideal" setup.

Also with modding vanity right there would murder any value the monster has. You would be better off from a price point modding a wingarm or ggd. You would loose a touch of damage and health but the price between a wingarm and vanity is huge and you wouldn't loose ep if you end up having to sell the vanity later. With how popular the wyrms are a dea/ipd wingarm would actually have a higher value then a ded wingarm.

Ah, I'm more of looking at vanity as a final capstone for the team in the far future. By the time I have the rest of my formation in order; Raminas, Ash, MoonC, there will probably be new wyrms which might supersede vanity in desirability. Also; impulse down probably won't be all that useful for me as a sin player. But I absolutely understand what you're saying about value loss. I get that vanity is priced how it is because A. very limited release; cov event reward, and B. Imp down; the most useful guild down, and high bp cov wing wyrm

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by jbbiggdogg on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:24 pm

Here's the AA+ Wyrm team I am running. All maxed and max skill

Wingarm, Raminas, Moon Sea, Venus and Neptune w/DEA

Got Neptune CHEAP so I couldn't pass it up. I am trying to get DoD for Raminas and pick up a Vanity and Terra hopefully with DEA/IPA and then add my Demo Dragon to make a 5x Combo but if I can't find Terra with a skill then I just have to settle for the 5x with only 4 skills.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by Horg on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:55 pm

Yeah...don't ever re-skill vanity...use a summonable winged wyrm for that, I chose vanity because guild down is your only real choice for non-repeated base skill in winged wyrms.

As for IPD, you don't need it, drop MLD as soon as you can; making a AA+ team isn't about picking the right skills, it's about picking the right monsters and balancing your skills and combos. If you want a specific skill set then give up on wyrms and mix your species.

Ex.
You are currently mixing Rarity and Guild, which is a lose of 25% Attack and 20% Defense. That's a lot, that's basically a max skill IPD and IPA. On top of that, your lindwurm is also losing 10.5% bonus due to not being sin.

If you replaced Lind/MLD with Moonsea/Ash you would gain 20% defense (IE almost the entire IPD benefit) PLUS 25% attack and you would gain 10.5% stats on that fifth slot monster. So losing your IPD actually benefits you.

If you put in Raminas you would lose 10.5% stat bonus on him for not being sin, rarity combo (10% Attack 10% Defense) to gain 25% defense. Your overall stats would rise due to Raminas' large stat pool, you would only see about ~15% increase due to the skill.

I'm saying, get your 5 Combo AA+ Wyrms, this is a amazing team regardless of skill-set. Once you have this team go get a re-skilled wingarm and a raminas and toss them in to replace high stat/BP monsters with your low ones. You already have most of what you need for the AA+ 5 combo sin wyrms, just finish it then fill with remaining needed wyrms.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:14 pm

Horg wrote:Yeah...don't ever re-skill vanity...use a summonable winged wyrm for that, I chose vanity because guild down is your only real choice for non-repeated base skill in winged wyrms.

As for IPD, you don't need it, drop MLD as soon as you can; making a AA+ team isn't about picking the right skills, it's about picking the right monsters and balancing your skills and combos. If you want a specific skill set then give up on wyrms and mix your species.

Ex.
You are currently mixing Rarity and Guild, which is a lose of 25% Attack and 20% Defense. That's a lot, that's basically a max skill IPD and IPA. On top of that, your lindwurm is also losing 10.5% bonus due to not being sin.

If you replaced Lind/MLD with Moonsea/Ash you would gain 20% defense (IE almost the entire IPD benefit) PLUS 25% attack and you would gain 10.5% stats on that fifth slot monster. So losing your IPD actually benefits you.

If you put in Raminas you would lose 10.5% stat bonus on him for not being sin, rarity combo (10% Attack 10% Defense) to gain 25% defense. Your overall stats would rise due to Raminas' large stat pool, you would only see about ~15% increase due to the skill.

I'm saying, get your 5 Combo AA+ Wyrms, this is a amazing team regardless of skill-set. Once you have this team go get a re-skilled wingarm and a raminas and toss them in to replace high stat/BP monsters with your low ones. You already have most of what you need for the AA+ 5 combo sin wyrms, just finish it then fill with remaining needed wyrms.


Ah, I see. The numbers really help clarify why IPD isn't necessarily a huge priority. Thank you; I get why moonc/ash are prioritized above raminas/dod now.

So I suppose I'll start working on getting a moonsea to replace venus, so my interim form will be: Banished/MoonC/Kanna/MLD/Lind (keep venus in reserve for the time being; possibly use venus and neptune [i have a neptune+m sitting around] in-place of MLD/Lind when I'm attacking people who don't have agi so I can use a 5AA, 4x combo)

and then an Ash to convert to 5AA so my form looks like: Ash/Banished/MoonC/Kanna/Venus

Then finally, I can go for that raminas to replace venus.

thank you everyone for all the advice and feedback. I think I know what I'm going to do next.

and at some point: skillchanges for moonc and kanna. (along the process if something happens to cause spirit prices to fall significantly I guess, or long after I have raminas if no such price change occurs)

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by Scratch102 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Totally following this thread and consuming all the info in here.

Going from the AA+ team in my sig and moving towards Wyrms only, so this is DAMN USEFUL INFO, even for me being sub-80.

Many thanks in advance to the folks who have contributed.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by JessicaMD on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:27 pm

larry378 wrote:
Ah, I see. The numbers really help clarify why IPD isn't necessarily a huge priority. Thank you; I get why moonc/ash are prioritized above raminas/dod now.

So I suppose I'll start working on getting a moonsea to replace venus, so my interim form will be: Banished/MoonC/Kanna/MLD/Lind (keep venus in reserve for the time being; possibly use venus and neptune [i have a neptune+m sitting around] in-place of MLD/Lind when I'm attacking people who don't have agi so I can use a 5AA, 4x combo)

um lol... I think you missed the point that you just said you realized

banished/moonc/kanna/venus/neptune is probably all around better than banished/moonc/kanna/mld/lind as your official formation... idk why you would use a 5AA 4xcombo team just as a special contextual team for people without agility lol... I would use a 5AA team all the time if i had one lol

because of rarity and level applied to the ENTIRE FORM and that venus and neptune have much much more stats than mld and lind, so that should make up any difference which was lost form taking away ipd... and they're lower bp and you want low bp. Also that just puts you one moonsea away from a 5AA form lol. rather than getting a moonsea and still using a 3AA/2A form

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by kyan on Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:35 am

JessicaMD wrote:
larry378 wrote:
Ah, I see. The numbers really help clarify why IPD isn't necessarily a huge priority. Thank you; I get why moonc/ash are prioritized above raminas/dod now.

So I suppose I'll start working on getting a moonsea to replace venus, so my interim form will be: Banished/MoonC/Kanna/MLD/Lind (keep venus in reserve for the time being; possibly use venus and neptune [i have a neptune+m sitting around] in-place of MLD/Lind when I'm attacking people who don't have agi so I can use a 5AA, 4x combo)

um lol... I think you missed the point that you just said you realized

banished/moonc/kanna/venus/neptune is probably all around better than banished/moonc/kanna/mld/lind as your official formation... idk why you would use a 5AA 4xcombo team just as a special contextual team for people without agility lol... I would use a 5AA team all the time if i had one lol

because of rarity and level applied to the ENTIRE FORM and that venus and neptune have much much more stats than mld and lind, so that should make up any difference which was lost form taking away ipd... and they're lower bp and you want low bp. Also that just puts you one moonsea away from a 5AA form lol. rather than getting a moonsea and still using a 3AA/2A form

yes. I know giving up agility is hard but in almost every case, 5AA+ trumps 4AA+ with agility. The gain in stat from the rarity and level bonus plus the inherently higher stat of the AA+ even a 16bp AA+ makes it worthwhile. Look at it this way, about the only people who has agility are A+ and a few hybrids. The wyrm AA+ team will beat the A+ regardless of agility. For the few hybrids, it will likely win as well and for full AA+ team you'll get agility boost from attacking anyway so getting a full AA+ team in the short term even with planet dragons will improve your team much more than maintaining the hybrid and shooting for the expensive AA+ wyrms.

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Re: Sin Wyrms; next step?

Post by larry378 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:02 pm

I get the huge stat difference; but in a team using 3 unskilled lowbp AAs (kanna/venus/nep) with only 2[arguably 1 since crit is bad] skills (ded and crit) The loss of agility seems to be a pretty nasty proposition.

I know I can beat any A team I come across currently because AA+/20 agi will always go first; and most A teams have offensively oriented skills which never even come into play because on average each of the AAs 1-shots something and then lind and mld will kill one together, leaving just the leader which can at worst take out lind before getting dogpiled second round...

if I removed agi, wouldn't I lose to A teams that I could previously beat? In some sense; having agi almost completely eliminates the need for defensive capacity (ipd) against A teams since their health is low enough to be knocked out by DED and winged combo; EVEN when they use ipd/dea(20). but without ipd and agi if they attack first I'm not sure what would really happen

Also I think Agi is pretty critical to defense against "weaker" full AA team. There are full AA people I farm and win (well I don't win because of agi when I attack; I would attack first anyways since they don't have agi; BUT if they were to attack me; the battle would go exactly the same unless they add an agi(20) to their form).

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