Guild Down question

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Guild Down question

Post by ryesteve on Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:47 pm

So, does it make any sense to have 2 guild downs in your formation at the same time?

I'm thinking no, because a guild down is basically a DEA16/DED16 on the same card... so if you're using two, and only one can affect any monster at a time, how is it not better to use a DEA20 and DED20 in place of those two guild downs?

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by larry378 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:16 pm

It might be handy to have 2 guild downs in your reserve ready to add to the team when relevant, but I don't think having 2 guild downs simultaneously will be useful in most situations.

There *might be times where having two guilds down is good, but I would imagine they are too rare to justify the expense of building something like that intentionally.

There may be situations where guild down monsters are more affordable than their counterparts like if you're trying to build an AA sin team and you use all the centaurs because they are cheap. But I think if you have a choice; the 5 major stat modifiers (ipa/ipd/ded/dea/health) should be prioritized above all else since they do not require a special context to work; and are much cheaper to max.

I guess it's not something to "strive for", but if it is unavoidable because you can't afford a skill change and no monster of the type you need for your formation exists with the skill you want; having multiple guild/species downs isn't too bad

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by ryesteve on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:01 pm

Yeah, having them in reserve makes sense; I'm just think in terms of the 5 in your formation, regardless of cost. Thanks for the feedback

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by Horg on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:20 am

Guild down is extremely powerful and having the 2 opposing guild downs in your formation is actually very good.

Ex. If you are covert, using psycho and sin down is definitely a good thing.

The concept of guild down is that you can stack it with DeD/DeA; I wouldn't use a team which has ONLY guild down, but if you already have DeD/DeA you can almost double your bonus and really make the other team hurt. On defense you can set both out there to cover both guilds, when on offense you can choose which guild you want to attack and replace the other with another skill/more powerful monster.
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Re: Guild Down question

Post by ryesteve on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:48 pm

Horg wrote:The concept of guild down is that you can stack it with DeD/DeA
But why would it be better to, for instance, add an extra 20% to DED when you could instead add 24% to IPA?

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by larry378 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:06 pm

ryesteve wrote:
Horg wrote:The concept of guild down is that you can stack it with DeD/DeA
But why would it be better to, for instance, add an extra 20% to DED when you could instead add 24% to IPA?

I was always under the impression that DED was the more powerful offensive skill for AAs compared to IPA (which was better for As)
because AAs in general have their stat distribution weighted towards defense, and As to attack; so applying a percentage modifier to the greater amount etc...

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by ryesteve on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:11 pm

larry378 wrote:so applying a percentage modifier to the greater amount etc...
But if you're already applying a DED, the extra DED provided by the guild down is no longer being applied to a greater amount.

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by larry378 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:33 pm

ryesteve wrote:
larry378 wrote:so applying a percentage modifier to the greater amount etc...
But if you're already applying a DED, the extra DED provided by the guild down is no longer being applied to a greater amount.

Ah; that's a good point. I was thinking in context of just pure DED vs IPA, not having DED and IPA vs havin DED and Guild Down

I suppose guild down still wins when relevant because it also hits enemy attack?

also how precisely ded/guild down interact would need to be known

i.e.
DED(20)/Guild Down(20) vs defense 10,000

A. DED takes off 25%; 7,500 def, guild down takes down 20%; 6,000 def remaining
OR
B. DED and Guild down combine their 25/20 for a 45% reduction; 5,500 def remaining

greater difference for greater defense values etc...

but to be honest; I'm not sure. IPA will certainly be relevant in more situations than guild down.

also I feel that guild down isn't necessarily the end-all skill based on the formations involved.

I run a pretty low-end AA/A hybrid form and I fight people with imp down(20)/ipa(20)/ded(20) 5AA teams fairly frequently; ded with winged combo on my end can usually beat them; although I absolutely MUST swap lind for a planet AA to win these fights; my standard team ends with both leaders alive; and mine with less health unless they miss and I crit). Although they will probably beat me if they attack first.

I still feel inclined somewhat to say that a relevant guild down is better than IPA; primarily for the DEA aspect rather than the DED aspect. Obviously having both guild down(20)s on hand and ready to use all the time is far more expensive than IPA, but if price wasn't an object; I think a correct guild down is an excellent auxiliary defensive skill to back up IPD/DEA.

Now I'm talking about maximizing survivability for first round defensive; which becomes a bit too theoretical since you have no control over who attacks you; and they can see what monsters you have (guild down-wise). but in a controlled enviroment; I think IPD/DEA/Guild Down (20) in tandem against the correct guild should result in good survivability against a first-round attack (even better with health up)


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Re: Guild Down question

Post by ryesteve on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:58 pm

Yes, I agree that in an offensive situation, it makes complete sense to swap in the relevant guild down; I'm thinking more defensively, when, as you said, you have no control over who attacks you.

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Re: Guild Down question

Post by Horg on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:12 pm

Skills are never additive, they are multiplicative, IE it applies skills when they are used in combat.

If a monster has 1000 Defense, DeD reduces it to 750, then guild down reduces it to 600. So net you only gain 15% benefit from guild down but 40% total benefit.

This also means that when you attack, you reduce all their stats BEFORE they can increase their stats. Due to this DeD is in fact more valuable than IPA on the offensive since you gain the decrease in their defense then additional decrease from their gimped IPD.

Every skill is dependent on the situation, you can assume the following for skill ranking...

DeD=IPA > Guild Down > DEA=IPD > Species Down
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